The Tortoise Table

Oh dear! Jennie, I am so sorry! When I wrote my reply below to your lovely email, I somehow accidentally deleted your message! I don't know how i did that, and I've been into the moderator logs to try and recover it, and I can't. Please forgive me -- that has never happened before and I'm so sorry. If you want to repost your original message that would be great, but I hope that my reply makes some sense.


Hi Jennie, and welcome to The Tortoise Table!

Congratulations on welcoming Marigold into your home (what a lovely name, but the way!).

It sounds like you've got a good set-up. Be sure that your lamp is capable of being raised and lowered in order to adjust the temperature in the table (on a warm day you will have to raise the lamp and on a cold day you'll have to lower it0. You're aiming for a temperature of c.30C directly under the lamp and about 20C at the cool end.

The one thing I would really recommend is a thermometer (they are fridge/freezer thermometers) with a digital display unit that can be placed outside the table and then a probe on the end of a long wire that can be hung down into the table so that the probe is as close as possible to the centre of the circle of light given off by your lamp, and at the height of Marigold's shell. Thermometers mounted on a nearby wall give a much lower temperature than it is under the lamp and can be very misleading, and temperature is super important for tortoises. It looks something like this (you can buy them in lots of places, but make sure yours has a Max/Min function so that you can see how hot or cold it got since you last looked):
https://www.pharmacy-equipment.co.uk/pr ... er-tmm105/

As far as EarthProA is concerned, it's OK but not ideal. The main reason is that it doesn't have VitaminD3 in it, and they need Vitamin D3 in order to absorb and utilise the calcium in their diets. In nature tortoises get UVB from the sun, and that reacts with cells on the skin to produce Vitamin D3, so if she can go outdoors on warm days that would be great. The other UVB she is getting is from your mercury vapour lamp, which is absolutely fine, but it is always good to have a supplement powder with D3 in it as well, and it says on the back of the EarthProA packet that it doesn't contain D3.

Most people use Nutrobal (a calcium and D3 supplement), but lots of tortoises don't like the taste, and you have to feed small quantities of it ('a pinch per kilo of tortoise' are the instructions). It is possible to overdose on D3 and other vitamins -- particularly vitamin A, but it's difficult to do that (you would have to give loads and loads). I used to use Nutrobal, but my vet recently recommended Arcadia RevitaliseD3, which is pretty much what your product has, but with D3 in it and the doses aren't so fiddly.

I assume that Marigold isn't eating the cuttlefish any more because she is getting enough calcium from her supplement, but I would still offer it to her. I also buy food grade calcium carbonate powder off the internet and just dust that liberally on days when I'm not giving the vitamin supplement. I think the way you are giving her the powder is fine, and a good tip is to wet the leaves, etc. that you feed her and then the powder will stick better to them.

You probably already have a good care sheet for Iberas, but in case you don't, here is a link to one: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

From what you've said, you've got a good set-up and it sounds like Marigold is thriving. If you'd like to send us a photo of her and her set-up we'd love to see it (sometimes there are tiny tweaks that you can make for improvements), but basically we never get tired of looking at photos of lovely tortoises!

Nina

Hi Nina, no worries about the original post!
Makes me feel better about not being able to figure out how to reply to your private message

Marigold still has the cuttlefish in her home, she just ignores it now.
I made her an outdoor enclosure so she goes outside when its nice, I have a window thermometer so can check the outside temp bgefore venturing out and check its 20*C or above.
I have just got a theromoeter with a probe for her table, mainly as I saw a vid where it was used to keep an eye on the temp when they hibernate. She has one on the wall of her table but I now know thats not enough.

I have been foraging wild leaves for her which I wash & keep fresh in the fridge for a few days before foraging for more, so they get a rinse before feeding which as you mentioned helps the supplement powder stick.
I'm not bad at recognising weeds but I have found your plant guide invaluable over the passed few months. I enjoy varying her diet and finding new leaves for her to try.
I have also discovered, as I read one of the other members has also found, that after growing pot marigolds from seed and delighting in giving her the first flower to open...Marigold doesnt like marigolds!

I'll post some pics of her set up when I can, but here is a pic of Marigold herself.

Hi Jennie,

Thanks for being so understanding about me accidentally deleting your original post!

That's great the Marigold has an outdoor enclosure too. You can actually put her out if it's a bit cooler than 20C, as long as she's well warmed up from being inside. Tortoises are like nice little storage heaters and retain their heat for quite a while, but when I put mine out and it's a bit cool, I just feel their shells every now and then, and when the shell is starting to feel cool, I bring them in for a warm up under the lamps and then put them out again.

Yup, those are the thermometers that we use for hibernation, so that's great you've already got one. Just for info, hold the probe directly under your lamp at the height of marigold's shell for about two minutes or so, and then see if that temperature is different from the temp showing on the wall-mounted thermometer. You can still use the wall one -- just move it to the cool side of the table and it should give you a good idea of the temperature there.

That's great that you are foraging wild leaves for her, and a varied diet is great to aim for. In the wild they would eat over a hundred different species of plants, so we try to give them as wide and varied a diet as possible.. I saw what looks like a yellow flower in one of the photos. Is that an Evening Primrose flower? I only ask because those are my tortoises' favourites -- they love the flowers and leaves of Evening Primrose.

And yes, they do have preferences. One of my tortoises absolutely loves round leaved and narrow leaved Plantain, and the other will eat the narrow leaved Plantain but won't touch the round leaved one.

Thanks so much for the photos! I do think Marigold is so sweet looking --- I can see why you've fallen in love with her. I think you said that they estimated she was 3 or 4 years old. Can you tell me how much she weighs? Her shell is a bit bumpy (with the individual scutes being raised up like little pyramids), and that indicates that wherever she lived before she came to you probably didn't give her the best diet (maybe too much protein, and not enough calcium) -- or else they fed her good food but maybe too much of it. Tortoises need to grow slowly, and we aim for an increase of between 1g - 3g per month on average (some months she will gain more and some less, but it's a target to aim for). If they are fed too much, or have too much protein in their diet the shell grows quickly but isn't constructed as densely as healthy shell, and it can lead to metabolic bone disease. My Doris came to me very bumpy, but her growth has been slow and smooth since I've had her, and although the bumps are still there, they aren't as noticeable because the newer growth is smooth.

I think Marigold is very lucky to have found a home with you, and that she'll thrive under your care!

Nina

The yellow flower is a Hawksbeard, I have yet to find her any evening primrose to try, but might have to get some seeds for next year.
She deffinately likes the round plantain which is lucky as its prolific here, but isnt keen on the thin leaved plantain!
I have read here that tough mature leaves are better for their digestion as I have been giving her predominantly new growth which she seems to prefer, I am now concerned her poos arent fiberous enough so will have to pick older leaves and try from now on I think.

I'm glad you mentioned her shell, I thought it might be a tad bumpy but have no other tortoise for comparison (or tortoise knowlege) and no idea about her previous life & diet.
I think she has grown probaly too fast since I have had her but if her diet was poor I am hoping she has just been making up for lost time since I try to avoid protien rich leaves. Can you over feed them with just forage?
She weighs 260g and is just about 10cm long.

Hi Jennie,

Mine love Hawksbeard too. I could send you some Evening Primrose seeds, but I can't guarantee that they will germinate as they are several years old. Once you have the plants though, you'll have them forever because they happily re-seed, even in the cracks between paving stones. Send me your name and address to nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk and I'll get some in the post to you..I also have loads of seeds for Smooth Hawksbeard and I could put some of those in too, plus a very pretty type of round leaved plantain with red leaves (Plantago rubra),

Ideally a tortoise's shell should be completely smooth, with no bumps at all, but this is hard to achieve, so don't worry too much and just do your best. Have a look at the photos in the care sheet I gave a link to in my first post, and you can see that there are a lot of tortoises there with very smooth shells.

You are right in thinking that more fibrous leaves (often the mature ones) are good for tortoises (although in some plants it is best to feed younger leaves because harmful elements build up in the older leaves of some plants. For example, here is our entry for strawberry leaves: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... nt=293&c=8

Yes, you can feed too much of foraged leaves. In the wild tortoises like Iberas tend to live in areas with long hot summers, where much of the vegetation dries up and there is competition with mammals for what is left. Some people use a guideline of enough leaves/flowers etc. to make a little jacket or blanket to cover their shell, once a day, or as much as they can eat in 15 - 20 minutes once a day, but the best guideline is to measure weight. Would you like a copy of our Tortoise Observation Records booklet? It's just somewhere for you to keep records of vet details, changes of equipment, hibernation, and weight records and lots of people find it very useful for that. If you send me your name and address I'll send the booklet and some seeds to you.

I think 260g sounds OK, but maybe a little big for 3 or 4 years. How are you measuring the length? It is called the SCL and has to be measured in a certain way, and here is a guide on how to do it (just scroll down a bit) https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... measuring/

Hope you and Marigold are having a lovely Bank Holiday!

Nina

Hi Nina, the seeds would be very welcome thank you! I will email my address.

I tried the paper/wall technique, she didnt want to stick her head in
I managed to get a reading of 10cm still so I'll go with that!

Aww, she's obviously strong willed. You do have to push her gently up against the wall and her head will eventually go in if you are persistent. It's only for a second or two, and it won't harm her. So does the 10cm include the length of her neck and head?

Nina

When I first measured her it was the length of her shell underneath, with the SCL method I did manage to push her against the wall and draw the line behind her but her head wasnt fully in and not for long! But she was fully up against the wall briefly enough for me to do it I think.
When measuring her underneath I wasnt sure whether to measure from under her tail of to include her spurs.

I think you've probably measured her OK, if the front of her shell was touching the wall, and then you just put the pencil vertically at her back shell and draw the line there -- and you wouldn't include the tail in her measurements.

Nina