The Tortoise Table

Hello there! I just adopted a lovely Horsefield Russian Tortoise and I'm really new to tortoise care. Leaf Erikson has been really active over the past month that I have had him. He is about 1-2 years old. He is playful and has adjusted really nicely. He lives indoors in an enclosure. All of sudden (over the past three days) he has been sleeping a lot more than usual and doesn't want to have his daily "party party" time when he begs to get out of his enclosure to eat flowers and roam around. Over one period of time he slept for 48 hours. Thankfully he woke up to poop, eat some cucumbers and drink some water. Then he just went back to sleep. The sleeping period has come with a pretty serious snow storm (we're in New York USA), so I wonder if he's just too cold? I keep the ambient temp in the room no lower than 63 with a space heater and of course he has heating and UBV lamps during the day. Do I need to be soaking him daily? Usually I soak him once a week. I heard that will keep them from wanting to hibernate which is what I'm afraid of. Any suggestions are welcome! Thank you!

Hi and welcome to The Tortoise Table.

Love the name Leif Erikson, and Horsfield tortoises are a great species. Regarding his sleeping/lethargy, most of the time this is due to temperature. Because tortoises are ectothermic (meaniing they don't make their own body temperature like mammals do), they need the correct temperatures to enable them to function. During the day Leif should have a temperature of about 86F - 88 or 89F under his heat source (and this needs to be measured directly under his lamp and at the height of his shell and not by a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall, as that will give an inaccurate reading), and about 68F at the cool end of his enclosure. The temperature can be much lower at night and 63F is absolutely fine. If the temperature is too cold he will tend to want to sleep and if it is too hot he might also want to sleep. Can you tell me what the temperature is directly under his light?

Is his indoor enclosure an open, tortoise table-type enclosure, or an enclosed glass and wood vivarium enclosure? I think that given his age I would bathe him several times a week. Tortoises can go a long time without food but they can dehydrate quickly under lights indoors.

If your temperatures are fine (c. 86F - 89F during the day under the lamp, and c. 63F at night), then there could be other reasons for his sleeping. Worms or other parasites are a possibility and are easily cured, but first let's see if it's due to temperature.

Horsfields have a really strong hibernation instinct, and if his sleeping is due to that then the thing to do is to wake him up each morning and put him under his lamp to warm up and then offer him some food. If he goes straight back to bed before warming up then put him under the light again, and do this two or three more times if he continues to want to go back to sleep immediately. I wouldn't do it more than three or four times as you don't want to stress him, but do that every day, and usually after about two weeks he should start waking up on his own and be active again (it's worked for my tortoises in the past, and hopefully it will work for Leif Erikson too). We don't recommend hibernating your tortoise until you have had him for about a year, as they need to be in really excellent health before hibernating, and you need to know him well enough to know if he is off color a bit, so you don't want to hibernate him this year.

I know how stressful this can be, and I hope some of the information here has been helpful, and do let us know how you get on. If the advice on temperature and encouraging him to stay awake doesn't work, then a trip to a good exotics vet might be in order, but do try this first.

By the way, you might be interested to know that the reason 'Horsfield' is spelled without an 'e' in the middle is because they are named after Dr Thomas Horsfield, a 19th Century American naturalist and explorer who discovered the species.

Nina

Hi Nina! Thank you! Oh my gosh, thank you for all of the advice! Yes, Horsfield is spelled that way! I did NOT know that, so thank you for pointing it out. I love learning new things! We spell Leaf's name "Leaf" Erikson because my little one thought it was like a pun and thinks it's hilarious. Kids, right?! So anyway...I just measured Leaf's enclosure temps and it was 112 under his lamp right next to the substrate and 78 in the corner where he likes to sleep. It's 66 in the cool end. His enclosure is in a room that has windows on three sides of the walls, so temperature has been tricky as it seems to change frequently based on the weather and it has been coooold lately. It is insulated and heated though. I remember reading somewhere that these tortoises kind of hibernate when it's too warm outside, so what you're saying completely makes sense about the heating lamp. I have just changed his lamp and it now reads 88 at shell height, so we'll see if this helps!

His enclosure is an open table-type made out of wood. I have attached a picture for you to see! I've also noticed that they humidity is low in his enclosure (I've been running a space heater lately to keep the room temp up for him) so I've been spraying it once in a while to get it up to 30%-50% which is what the vet recommended. I did bring him to an initial vet visit where she said that he looks really good. She also did some testing on his stool and he didn't have any parasites. I will also be increasing his soaks to a few times a week to keep him hydrated

Thank you again for all of the help! I'll send an update and let you know how it goes!

- Leslie

Hi Leslie,

Gosh, I've just seen photos of roofs that have caved in from the snowstorm in upstate New York, and I hope you and your family haven't been badly affected by that.

I'm so glad I was able to help, and really glad too that we found the temperature problem. 112F (44.5C) is lethally hot (it actually becomes dangerous for him when the temperature reaches 100F, so it's great that you caught it in time, and I think Leaf -- I love the choice your children made -- will be associated with but not confused with the great Norse explorer and will be much happier now that you've got the temperature down.

You've got a nice sized table while he is still young, and I think the only suggestion I would make is to maybe think of changing the substrate. I looks like you've got hemp or a similar substrate there, and although many people (including me) used this as a substrate years ago, it is not recommended now for various reasons:
1. It's not a natural substrate for a tortoise that lives in the wild on a sandy soil substrate
2. It has been shown that sharp ends of pieces of hemp have scratched tortoises' eyes, and caused slight damage by scratching throats if eaten
3. It can go mouldy if it gets damp
4. We know of two cases where a light bulb blew and hot pieces of glass that fell down onto the substrate started a fire.

The recommended substrate is a mixture of topsoil and children's playsand mixed together. Some people mix it 50/50, but my Horsfields prefer it about 60% or 70% topsoil and the rest children's playsand, and you can buy bags of these at most DIY stores and garden centers. You then spray it lightly every day or two to keep it from getting dusty (or what I do is to pour some water on it every three or four days and mix it up well). You want the end result to be just the teeniest tiniest bit damp -- not wet at all (if you take a handful of soil into your hand and make a fist, it should just start to hold together. And I would make it as deep as you can -- 3" or 4" at least, because Horsfields are a burrowing species and they like nothing better than to bury themselves completely in the substrate (it's quite terrifying to come downstairs one morning and think they have escaped, only to find them buried in the soil. It's also easy to spot clean as you can lift out soil that has clumped together from a wee with an old spoon, etc.

I can't see from your photo how your heat/light bulb is suspended, but it's best if you can raise and lower it easily, in order to increase or decrease the temperature in the table as needed. It might be that you already have that facility, but I just thought I'd mention it.

It might be worth investing in a thermometer that can measure your hot spot more easily. I use one of those fridge/freezer thermometers with a digital display unit that can sit out side the table and then a probe on the end of a cord that can hang right down into the circle of light given off by your bulb. We are in the UK, but I've had a quick look on USA sites and here's the sort of thing I'm describing: https://www.novatech-usa.com/CPI-90205-26 (I'm sure you can get them in lots of places and do get one with a max/min facility, as that will record how hot or how cold it got since you last looked).

You probably already have a good care sheet for Leaf, but here's a link to one that we use in the UK (most of the information should be relevant)
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

I hope the temperature adjustment works and that Leaf is back to his normal self soon -- and do let us know how you get on.

Nina

Hi Nina!

Yes, the damage has been really bad in our area. We got completely slammed over the past few days. Luckily we have haven't had any issues at our house, just a huge ton of snow to deal with! I feel so bad for those that have suffered loses because of it.

I must say, Nina, you're a tortoise savior. Leaf is already feeling better. He's been up the majority of the day eating, drinking, moving around and checking things out. I'm so glad I reached out when I did because I had no idea that was too hot for him! Sheesh! It was a close one! Many MANY thanks!

Right now for substrate I'm using Cypress, which the vet recommended. I had been using a Reptisoil, but the vet said to switch it out because it would hold too much humidity. They also recommended coconut fiber/husk, but I haven't tried that yet. Believe it or not, it's really hard to find top soil and sand around here in the middle of the winter! All of the hardware stores keep it outdoors and it's covered with snow like everything else, so I'm going to have to do with what I can order online until things thaw out.

Is it true that sand can cause issues in a tortoise's eyes as well? I read that somewhere...I can see how the cypress could be pointy and cause issues though, especially when he's burrowing. Finding the right substrate is so hard. Everyone has their goto stuff and I'm just not sure which one to use. There seems to be a substrate debate!

Leslie

Hi Leslie,

I'm so glad that you haven't been affected by the snow. It seems like there have been lots of serious weather events over the last few years. In the UK, we are specialists in rain and have had quite a lot of flooding in places recently.

You are right that there is an ongoing debate about substrates! We tend to follow the advice of the Tortoise Trust, which is the highest authority on tortoises here, and they've conducted years of research in the wild to support their advice on animal husbandry. In the wild, species of tortoise like Horsfields and Hermann's tortoises live on a very sandy soil substrate, and I've attached some photos of tortoises in the wild. Horsfields are a burrowing species and like nothing better than to dig a tunnel. Here's an article from the Tortoise Trust on substrates (the article is a bit old now, but still has some useful informaiton https://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/substrates.html

From what I've seen,

One of the interesting things about them is that if you compare the shape of a Horsfield to other tortoises, Horsfields have a rounder shape, whereas most other species are oval in shape. This is because when they dig a tunnel which is just as wide as they are, and then reach the end, it's easier to turn around and come back out if your shape is round rather than oval.

Anyway, regarding substrates. I think ReptiSoil is especially for tropical enclosures where you do want more humidity, whereas Horsfields should have a bit of humidity but basically dry. I don't think that the cypress is as bad as hemp, so for the time being you could stick with that, but I would definitely switch to a more soil-based substrate eventually. I've been looking at various sites and one suggests a combination of three ZooMed products: one-third Forest Floor; one-third Eco Earth; and one-third ReptiSand or ReptiFresh. I'm afraid I have no experience with any of them, so can't say how good that would be, but I did find this site that seems to sell lots of substrates at more reasonable prices than some: https://www.neherpetoculture.com/substratesother Many years ago I use to use something called aubiose, which is like hemp but a bit finer and softer (so less likely to scratch them), but mine are much, much happier with a soil-based substrate. It's a really difficult subject!

Here are some photos of tortoises in the wild:

[attachment=0]m_torts and sand.jpg[/attachment][attachment=1]m_torts and sand 3.jpg[/attachment][attachment=2]m_Torts and sand 2.jpg[/attachment]

Nina

Hi Nina! Wow, thank you again for all of the great recommendations. I'll definitely go forward with your substrate suggestion once I can get it in my area. It's nice to hear from someone who uses it herself and that it works. Leaf does love to dig, so it seems like the best composition. When I did try Reptisoil I did have a hard time because it was so dusty. When Leaf would get wet, it just stuck all over him which I think he didn't like. Maybe I'm just making that up, but he seemed annoyed and it was very messy. So, keeping the soil/sand a bit moist makes a lot of sense! Thank you again for all of your willing expertise! I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions as time goes by!

Glad to be of help, and I'm sure that Leaf will thrive under your care. Just make sure that the substrate is only the tiniest bit damp - just to keep it from being dusty, as Horsfields prefer a relatively dry substrate. And do please come back with any questions -- that's what we're here for

Nina

Hi Nina! It was funny. I tried ordering some top soil from our local garden center and I thought the order was successful, but they called me and said that they had to cancel my order because it was outside in a huge block of ice! Oh well! I also have to mention that my husband and I joke about moving to the UK when we retire. I love the temperate temperatures that you have there and I love the rain, so every time I've visited I've always felt at home. Hopefully you haven't had any flooding!

Going with the top soil/sand combo is definitely the most economical option though. It was WAY cheaper than the commercial reptile substrates. I think for the time being I'm going to get the Reptisoil (which seems to be my only available option at the moment as far as soil goes in my area) and mix it 50/50 with play sand which I can get. That's pretty much as close as I can get. Your info about fire safety definitely freaked me out, so I'll be changing it out this weekend. Thanks again!