Hi,
I have two 5½ year old Hermanns tortoises, one male one female. They live separately indoors, and go out for a few hours in good weather. I really wanted to hibernate them this year. Especially the female but I am concerned about their lack of weight gain. They were successfully hibernated last year by previous owner. He fed them mainly on bags of salad leaves. I have feed them on dandelion leaves, (won’t eat the flowers), plantain leaves, lettuces, rocket, salad leaves, greens and kale from shops, and occasionally pellets. I give them a shell size portion and they don’t always finish it, more so lately.
Pease see the information below. I would be most grateful for any advice on weather is it safe to hibernate them. They are in day 3 of fasting.
The Female
She is 7”(17.5cm) SCL and 61/4” (16cm) plastron length.
She is not very active and spends a lot more time in her hide than he does.
Even in the garden she will make straight for a bush to hide.
She is timid and wants to be left in peace.
She has been more sleepy since end Sept, despite heat ad UVB tube on 12 hours.
BUT her weight concerns me.
1st June 1130g
24 Oct 1124g
26 Oct 1113g
27 Oct 1112g
That’s a loss of 12g after 2 days fasting and 18g in 5 months.
The Male
He is 51/2” (13.5cm) SCL and 41/2” (11cm) plastron length
His is very active but likes to bask for long periods too.
He loves to climb over things in his enclosure.
His weight is also concerning;
1st June 535g
24 Oct 525g
26 Oct 518g
27 Oct 512g
That’s a loss of 13g after 2 days fasting and 23g in 5 months.
NB on the Jackson Ration they score 0.207 and 0.208 respectively but still, no weight gained.
I did the visual pre-hibernation checks and they look very healthy.
Thanks in advance.
No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Hi Autumn and thanks for contacting us
Can I ask how long have you had your tortoises? The reason I ask is because usually we advise not to brumate tortoises within a year of getting them so that you can learn how they act, watch their weight gains and losses, their exercise and feeding regime, and in general their health. Then we look back on how the year has gone, compare and look at weight gains and losses, the times of year they were happening and draw your own conclusions. I think you can safely say that your two, being in different surroundings, exploring, interest in finding different things, eating a diet that’s slightly better is more than likely the reason they have lost a little weight.
Regarding brumation, the Jackson Ratio (JR) is only a guide and not a golden rule. It’s not the weights before brumation that matters it’s the weight on the day they brumate and that’s where all your hard work comes in. Read the weights and compare with the JR chart and if the weight has kept pretty steady and they’re healthy then I’d say it’s okay to go ahead and brumate after winding down.
Let me know if there’s anything that is unclear and I will explain further.
Lin
Can I ask how long have you had your tortoises? The reason I ask is because usually we advise not to brumate tortoises within a year of getting them so that you can learn how they act, watch their weight gains and losses, their exercise and feeding regime, and in general their health. Then we look back on how the year has gone, compare and look at weight gains and losses, the times of year they were happening and draw your own conclusions. I think you can safely say that your two, being in different surroundings, exploring, interest in finding different things, eating a diet that’s slightly better is more than likely the reason they have lost a little weight.
Regarding brumation, the Jackson Ratio (JR) is only a guide and not a golden rule. It’s not the weights before brumation that matters it’s the weight on the day they brumate and that’s where all your hard work comes in. Read the weights and compare with the JR chart and if the weight has kept pretty steady and they’re healthy then I’d say it’s okay to go ahead and brumate after winding down.
Let me know if there’s anything that is unclear and I will explain further.
Lin
Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Hi Lin,
Thank you for taking the time to write a helpful reply. It is so so good to have someone to ask.
I think I am going to go ahead with brumation as it just feels like the right thing to do. I will weigh daily and check their weights at the end of the 4 weeks wind down. I am using the wind down guide from the Tortoise Protection Group. Can I run this by you please?
The guide says to put them in a room less than 10°C for the last/4th week. I don’t have that thank goodness, so do I put them in a box and set them in the shed?
I understand during brumation, they should not lose more than 1% of their weight per month. How often should I weigh them? Weekly, monthly?
Finally, are too much weight loss, urination, and visually checking, the only ways to monitor them and check they are alright.
Thanks so much again Lin.
Thank you for taking the time to write a helpful reply. It is so so good to have someone to ask.
I think I am going to go ahead with brumation as it just feels like the right thing to do. I will weigh daily and check their weights at the end of the 4 weeks wind down. I am using the wind down guide from the Tortoise Protection Group. Can I run this by you please?
The guide says to put them in a room less than 10°C for the last/4th week. I don’t have that thank goodness, so do I put them in a box and set them in the shed?
I understand during brumation, they should not lose more than 1% of their weight per month. How often should I weigh them? Weekly, monthly?
Finally, are too much weight loss, urination, and visually checking, the only ways to monitor them and check they are alright.
Thanks so much again Lin.
Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Hi Autumn,
I'm Lin's colleague on The Tortoise Table, and the wind down guide from the TPG is fine, and I use it myself. However, the 4 weeks (28 days) is fine for the female that weighs over 1 kg, but for the male who weighs just over 500g, I would wind down for no longer than 3 - 3.5 weeks. My Horsfields are in the 600g - 800g and I wind them down for just over three weeks. I use the TPG guide but divide it into 4 'weeks' of 5 days each, or 6 days each, instead of 7 days (so 23 or 24 days wind down).
For the last few days I put mine in the spare bedroom, close the door and open the windows and the temperature does fall down to 10C or below. You can put yours in the shed, as long as it isn't a lot less than 10C, as you don't want to shock them with sudden colder weather. Where will you be brumating them? If it is in your shed, and it's a wooden shed, then that isn't advised, because if we get a spell of below zero weather that lasts longer than a couple of days then that low temperature will eventually reach the tortoise, and no matter how well the box is insulated the cold will eventually reach them (each year we hear of one or two tortoise who have died or have gone blind because their eyes froze when they were hibernated in a wooden shed).
You can use a shed if the walls are properly insulated, and if you have a little heater (one of those oil-filled radiators works well), that is on a thermostat and set to go on if the temperature falls down to about 1C o 2C, but a brick-build shed or garage is better, and we would still recommend having a heater on a thermostat -- it might never go on, but it's there in case the temperature falls too low.
If you are just using the shed to cool them down for that last week and then are putting them into a fridge to brumate then that is fine, and sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick.
Regarding checking them. I would leave it for at least two weeks before checking them, so that they can settle in nicely. I weigh mine every three or four weeks after that in dim light and as quickly as possible, and then quickly put them back in. That is really the only way you can check on them. One other little thing is that if their eyes seem very sunken in, that can indicate dehydration, and so do check if they've had a wee, and even if they haven't and their eyes are very sunken in then I think I might consider waking them, just in case. If you're really worried (and we all get really worried at times when our tortoises are brumating), just give a little gentle tug on one of their hind legs. The normal reaction should be that they just start to pull their leg back in a tiny bit (lol, and then you know they're alive!).
Nina
Autumn wrote:
> Hi Lin,
>
> Thank you for taking the time to write a helpful reply. It is so so good
> to have someone to ask.
>
> I think I am going to go ahead with brumation as it just feels like the
> right thing to do. I will weigh daily and check their weights at the end
> of the 4 weeks wind down. I am using the wind down guide from the Tortoise
> Protection Group. Can I run this by you please?
>
> The guide says to put them in a room less than 10°C for the last/4th week.
> I don’t have that thank goodness, so do I put them in a box and set them in
> the shed?
>
> I understand during brumation, they should not lose more than 1% of their
> weight per month. How often should I weigh them? Weekly, monthly?
>
> Finally, are too much weight loss, urination, and visually checking, the
> only ways to monitor them and check they are alright.
>
> Thanks so much again Lin.
I'm Lin's colleague on The Tortoise Table, and the wind down guide from the TPG is fine, and I use it myself. However, the 4 weeks (28 days) is fine for the female that weighs over 1 kg, but for the male who weighs just over 500g, I would wind down for no longer than 3 - 3.5 weeks. My Horsfields are in the 600g - 800g and I wind them down for just over three weeks. I use the TPG guide but divide it into 4 'weeks' of 5 days each, or 6 days each, instead of 7 days (so 23 or 24 days wind down).
For the last few days I put mine in the spare bedroom, close the door and open the windows and the temperature does fall down to 10C or below. You can put yours in the shed, as long as it isn't a lot less than 10C, as you don't want to shock them with sudden colder weather. Where will you be brumating them? If it is in your shed, and it's a wooden shed, then that isn't advised, because if we get a spell of below zero weather that lasts longer than a couple of days then that low temperature will eventually reach the tortoise, and no matter how well the box is insulated the cold will eventually reach them (each year we hear of one or two tortoise who have died or have gone blind because their eyes froze when they were hibernated in a wooden shed).
You can use a shed if the walls are properly insulated, and if you have a little heater (one of those oil-filled radiators works well), that is on a thermostat and set to go on if the temperature falls down to about 1C o 2C, but a brick-build shed or garage is better, and we would still recommend having a heater on a thermostat -- it might never go on, but it's there in case the temperature falls too low.
If you are just using the shed to cool them down for that last week and then are putting them into a fridge to brumate then that is fine, and sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick.
Regarding checking them. I would leave it for at least two weeks before checking them, so that they can settle in nicely. I weigh mine every three or four weeks after that in dim light and as quickly as possible, and then quickly put them back in. That is really the only way you can check on them. One other little thing is that if their eyes seem very sunken in, that can indicate dehydration, and so do check if they've had a wee, and even if they haven't and their eyes are very sunken in then I think I might consider waking them, just in case. If you're really worried (and we all get really worried at times when our tortoises are brumating), just give a little gentle tug on one of their hind legs. The normal reaction should be that they just start to pull their leg back in a tiny bit (lol, and then you know they're alive!).
Nina
Autumn wrote:
> Hi Lin,
>
> Thank you for taking the time to write a helpful reply. It is so so good
> to have someone to ask.
>
> I think I am going to go ahead with brumation as it just feels like the
> right thing to do. I will weigh daily and check their weights at the end
> of the 4 weeks wind down. I am using the wind down guide from the Tortoise
> Protection Group. Can I run this by you please?
>
> The guide says to put them in a room less than 10°C for the last/4th week.
> I don’t have that thank goodness, so do I put them in a box and set them in
> the shed?
>
> I understand during brumation, they should not lose more than 1% of their
> weight per month. How often should I weigh them? Weekly, monthly?
>
> Finally, are too much weight loss, urination, and visually checking, the
> only ways to monitor them and check they are alright.
>
> Thanks so much again Lin.
Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Nina wrote:
> Hi Autumn,
>
> I'm Lin's colleague on The Tortoise Table, and the wind down guide from the TPG is
> fine, and I use it myself. However, the 4 weeks (28 days) is fine for the female
> that weighs over 1 kg, but for the male who weighs just over 500g, I would wind down
> for no longer than 3 - 3.5 weeks. My Horsfields are in the 600g - 800g and I wind
> them down for just over three weeks. I use the TPG guide but divide it into 4 'weeks'
> of 5 days each, or 6 days each, instead of 7 days (so 23 or 24 days wind down).
>
> For the last few days I put mine in the spare bedroom, close the door and open the
> windows and the temperature does fall down to 10C or below. You can put yours in the
> shed, as long as it isn't a lot less than 10C, as you don't want to shock them with
> sudden colder weather. Where will you be brumating them? If it is in your shed, and
> it's a wooden shed, then that isn't advised, because if we get a spell of below zero
> weather that lasts longer than a couple of days then that low temperature will
> eventually reach the tortoise, and no matter how well the box is insulated the cold
> will eventually reach them (each year we hear of one or two tortoise who have died or
> have gone blind because their eyes froze when they were hibernated in a wooden shed).
>
> You can use a shed if the walls are properly insulated, and if you have a little
> heater (one of those oil-filled radiators works well), that is on a thermostat and
> set to go on if the temperature falls down to about 1C o 2C, but a brick-build shed
> or garage is better, and we would still recommend having a heater on a thermostat --
> it might never go on, but it's there in case the temperature falls too low.
>
> If you are just using the shed to cool them down for that last week and then are
> putting them into a fridge to brumate then that is fine, and sorry if I got the wrong
> end of the stick.
>
> Regarding checking them. I would leave it for at least two weeks before checking
> them, so that they can settle in nicely. I weigh mine every three or four weeks
> after that in dim light and as quickly as possible, and then quickly put them back
> in. That is really the only way you can check on them. One other little thing is
> that if their eyes seem very sunken in, that can indicate dehydration, and so do
> check if they've had a wee, and even if they haven't and their eyes are very sunken
> in then I think I might consider waking them, just in case. If you're really worried
> (and we all get really worried at times when our tortoises are brumating), just give
> a little gentle tug on one of their hind legs. The normal reaction should be that
> they just start to pull their leg back in a tiny bit (lol, and then you know they're
> alive!).
>
> Nina
>
>
> Hi Autumn,
>
> I'm Lin's colleague on The Tortoise Table, and the wind down guide from the TPG is
> fine, and I use it myself. However, the 4 weeks (28 days) is fine for the female
> that weighs over 1 kg, but for the male who weighs just over 500g, I would wind down
> for no longer than 3 - 3.5 weeks. My Horsfields are in the 600g - 800g and I wind
> them down for just over three weeks. I use the TPG guide but divide it into 4 'weeks'
> of 5 days each, or 6 days each, instead of 7 days (so 23 or 24 days wind down).
>
> For the last few days I put mine in the spare bedroom, close the door and open the
> windows and the temperature does fall down to 10C or below. You can put yours in the
> shed, as long as it isn't a lot less than 10C, as you don't want to shock them with
> sudden colder weather. Where will you be brumating them? If it is in your shed, and
> it's a wooden shed, then that isn't advised, because if we get a spell of below zero
> weather that lasts longer than a couple of days then that low temperature will
> eventually reach the tortoise, and no matter how well the box is insulated the cold
> will eventually reach them (each year we hear of one or two tortoise who have died or
> have gone blind because their eyes froze when they were hibernated in a wooden shed).
>
> You can use a shed if the walls are properly insulated, and if you have a little
> heater (one of those oil-filled radiators works well), that is on a thermostat and
> set to go on if the temperature falls down to about 1C o 2C, but a brick-build shed
> or garage is better, and we would still recommend having a heater on a thermostat --
> it might never go on, but it's there in case the temperature falls too low.
>
> If you are just using the shed to cool them down for that last week and then are
> putting them into a fridge to brumate then that is fine, and sorry if I got the wrong
> end of the stick.
>
> Regarding checking them. I would leave it for at least two weeks before checking
> them, so that they can settle in nicely. I weigh mine every three or four weeks
> after that in dim light and as quickly as possible, and then quickly put them back
> in. That is really the only way you can check on them. One other little thing is
> that if their eyes seem very sunken in, that can indicate dehydration, and so do
> check if they've had a wee, and even if they haven't and their eyes are very sunken
> in then I think I might consider waking them, just in case. If you're really worried
> (and we all get really worried at times when our tortoises are brumating), just give
> a little gentle tug on one of their hind legs. The normal reaction should be that
> they just start to pull their leg back in a tiny bit (lol, and then you know they're
> alive!).
>
> Nina
>
>
Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
...
Last edited by Autumn on 29 Oct 2024, 16:09, edited 1 time in total.
Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Hi Nina,
It’s very good of you to give me another detailed response. It is all so helpful. That is very interesting that I should wind him down for less time. As you can see, he is still very active and seems to be having a lot of fun with his acrobatics in his enclosure. She just wants to sleep bless her.
I have a spare fridge and will be using that with probe thermometers. I wouldn’t feel comfortable using the shed due to mild spells and freezing. It’s good to hear the pros and cons all the same. I will do the weighing and checks as you do. Yes it is only natural to worry when we are putting them in what seems a very vulnerable position but with the right guidance, I hope all will go very well.
With much appreciation,
Sharon
It’s very good of you to give me another detailed response. It is all so helpful. That is very interesting that I should wind him down for less time. As you can see, he is still very active and seems to be having a lot of fun with his acrobatics in his enclosure. She just wants to sleep bless her.
I have a spare fridge and will be using that with probe thermometers. I wouldn’t feel comfortable using the shed due to mild spells and freezing. It’s good to hear the pros and cons all the same. I will do the weighing and checks as you do. Yes it is only natural to worry when we are putting them in what seems a very vulnerable position but with the right guidance, I hope all will go very well.
With much appreciation,
Sharon
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Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Hi Sharon,
What handsome tortoises (what are their names?), and thanks so much for the photos. That little male is quite the acrobat
!
It's only a bit less time, but the general rule is that the bigger the tortoise the longer you wind them down, because it takes longer for them to empty their stomachs, etc.
The probe thermometers with a max/min facility are very good, as you can see how cold or warm it got since you last looked. I use this one, but you can buy them in lots of places: https://www.pharmacy-equipment.co.uk/pr ... er-tmm105/
Cheers,
Nina
What handsome tortoises (what are their names?), and thanks so much for the photos. That little male is quite the acrobat
!It's only a bit less time, but the general rule is that the bigger the tortoise the longer you wind them down, because it takes longer for them to empty their stomachs, etc.
The probe thermometers with a max/min facility are very good, as you can see how cold or warm it got since you last looked. I use this one, but you can buy them in lots of places: https://www.pharmacy-equipment.co.uk/pr ... er-tmm105/
Cheers,
Nina
Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Omar and Matilda. Yes they are beautiful. 
That probe looks great. I'll get one ordered thanks.
So I'll work ahead with my new knowledge. Thank you both so much.
Till next time.
Sharon
That probe looks great. I'll get one ordered thanks.
So I'll work ahead with my new knowledge. Thank you both so much.
Till next time.
Sharon
Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Great names! My Doris and Dolly have names like little old spinsters, which is sort of what they are (although Doris used to be called Boris before she showed herself to be female)!
Nina
[attachment=0]turtsdancing.gif[/attachment]
Nina
[attachment=0]turtsdancing.gif[/attachment]
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- turtsdancing.gif (71.62 KiB) Viewed 52809 times
Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Hi, I only just saw this. 
I love the idea of your two old spinster. I hope Boris is glad to be a Doris.
I love the idea of your two old spinster. I hope Boris is glad to be a Doris. Re: No weight gain in summer/ weight loss. Safe to brumate?
Ha, ha -- yes, she is all into girl power!
Cheers,
Nina
Cheers,
Nina
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