To early to hibinate?

[Ash]

Hi All

Would like a little advice please. I have a very old thigh spurred tortoise, she is at least 85 year old possibly more - she was given to me in 1980 on my 3rd birthday!

Anyway she was looked after for many years by my late Mum, last year we hibernated her in a box in a brick shed, the same as previous years, the temp was a little higher than I was comfortable with to begin with but it finally got cold enough and all was well.

This year has been a little different for her as we now live in a location that I can keep her again so we have had her with us throughout the summer, she's been happy, eating well and been busy exploring her new surroundings but around 3-4 weeks weeks ago she decided it's time to hibernate and gradually stopped eating, looking for places to settle, sleeping more etc.. She is still drinking daily and is in good health, her weight is 2.7kg and using the Jackson ratio she is at a good weight. We normally leave her around 5-6 weeks before we hibernate her from when she stops eating but this year it's about a month earlier than usual.

Over the last few weeks I've tried increasing her lighting and heat to get her eating but she's just been moving away and is not interested! Offering her food she looks at me then walks away in the opposite direction

She's been in the house at night but I'm now going to start moving her to cooler locations over the next week, we actually go on holiday soon to make it a little more complicated! I feel the best thing to do is go with what she wants and hibernate her but we go away next week so will plan it for when we get back which will be the end of the month so is the start of October to early? temp wise it may not be cold enough (in the UK) and I may need to go the fridge route but ideally will go wit what she's used to if weather permits.

She normally wakes naturally as the weather warms but if I put her in a fridge I'll have to bring her out and I'm not sure how long to do this for, she normally hibernates for 3- 4 months which would mean the end of January which just sounds too early.

I'm planning on putting her in a plastic box so I can transfer her to and from a fridge if needed, if it stays at a suitable temperature I can then move that to an insulated box in a brick shed. the plastic box will also allow me to weigh her without disturbing her too much too.

Anyway I would appreciate some opinions because the more I read online the more conflicting information I get, she's a very hardy tortoise and I'm sure she will be fine regardless but obviously want to make sure.

Thanks

Ash

[lin]

Hi Ask.
How lovely to have an old lady, they’re the best.
So sorry to have taken so long but we have been so busy, would it be ok if we get back to you tomorrow sometime.

Lin

[Ash]

Hi Lin

No rush at all, thanks!

Ash

[Nina]

Hi Ash,

I'm so sorry that it's taken us so long to get back to you! First of all, I do envy you being the custodian of such an elderly and lovely tortoise -- I always think it is an honour to be the keeper of an old tortoise, and she has obviously had a good life with you!

Regarding hibernation -- do you live in the UK? If so, then many tortoises are now slowing down and going into hibernation mode, due to the cold and rainy weather (lack of a proper summer) that we've been having -- my Horsfields are definitely going into hiberantion mode, and in my opinion it is too early for them to hibernate. Tortoises shouldn't hibernate for more than 16 weeks (14 - 16 weeks is best for adult tortoises), because after that time their immune systems are compromised a bit and they are more likely to succumb to infections, etc. If my tortoises went into hibernation, say, at the end of September then they would wake up in January, when it is still winter, there are very few weeds about to feed them, and they would have to spend a much longer time indoors before they could go out. So you would certainly have to provide her with indoor accommodation for quite a while before she would be able to go outdoors.

What I would recommend -- and it is not guaranteed to work because tortoises have very strong will power -- is to try and keep her out of hibernation mode for the next month or two. To do this you will have to provide indoor accommodation that fools her into thinking it is a bright summer's day -- so really good heat and very bright lights. What you need is a light/heat bulb that can provide a temperature of around 30C directly under the bulb and measured at the height of the tortoise's shell. To increase or decrease the temperature you can raise or lower the bulb. Then away from the bulb it should be about 20C and that will enable her to move from warmer to cooler areas in order to thermoregulate (and no extra heat is needed at night, as long as the temperature doesn't drop below about 14C).

What I do with mine when they won't wake up in the morning at this time of year is to put them under the light to warm up. If they go straight back to the corner to sleep, I put them back under the lamp again. I do this three or four times (not more as I don't want to stress them out), and after about two weeks of doing this every morning, they seem to turn a corner and then start waking up themselves.

It's very good that she is still drinking. If she doesn't want to eat, you could try hand feeding her once she is thoroughly warmed up, and that usually works with mine (but I know that it doesn't work with all tortoises).

You are probably right that it might be best to just go with her instincts and let her hibernate early -- especially as you are about to go away on holiday. Do make sure that she is really well hydrated before she goes into hibernation, and that she has an indoor, warm space to live in if she wakes in mid-winter. I really wouldn't let her hibernate for more than about 16 weeks though, for reasons listed above).

We can send you full instructions on fridge hibernation if you would like. I do think that with the changes in our climate, fridge hibernation is a better solution than box hibernating, because we now have the occasional warm period in winter, and if a tortoise wakes up properly they lose their glycogen for that year (the thing that gives them their kick start when they wake up), and shouldn't be allowed to go back into hibernation. The other advantage of fridge hibernation is that 5C is the ideal hibernation temperature, and 5C is the temperature in a fridge (note that you cannot use a fridge that has a freezer compartment in it). When the temperature gets up to 10C, a tortoise in hibernation starts to lose body fat, and we have in the last few years had occasions when the temperature has got up to 10C or higher for several days. Obviously a tortoise in a well insulated box in a brick shed will not feel the effects of 10C if it is only a day or two, but with longer periods of either high temperatures or below freezing temperatures a tortoise will be affected. In a box in a shed, it's always a good idea to have a little tubular heater on a thermostat that will go on if the temperature falls below about 2C for any length of time.

I'm so sorry that this has been such a long email (and i hope you haven't fallen asleep in the middle of it), but I hope that I've been able to provide some useful information. Please let us know how you get on and whether you want the information about fridge hibernation, and don't hesitate to get back to us with more questions or progress reports.

Nina

[lin]

Hi Ash
In addition to Nina’s message I would also consider investing in one of these halogen work lights. They make a nice steady ambient temperature and give off a lot of bright light both of what are needed to keep a sleepy tortoise awake for the extra time. It also makes a handy light if needed elsewhere when it’s not being used for tortoise things.
They can be bought in most diy stores but if you decide to get one I would pick up a few extra tubes as well, one tube / bulb works for years to be honest.
https://www.homebase.co.uk/arlec-400w-p ... KktFfMNrXJ

Lin

[Ash]

Hi Nina & Lin

Thanks so much for this, yes we are in the UK and had been trying with lights but I've just ordered a new combined basking/uvb bulb (as the one I have is close to failing now anyway) and a halogen work lamp. She's now back at my Dad house and he's going to give it a try while we're away and see if he can get her eating.

I'll give you an update in a couple a weeks.

Thanks

Ash

[Nina]

Good luck, Ash, and let us know how you get on (and have a super holiday too).

Nina

[alicent23]

Since your tortoise has already begun showing signs of preparation for hibernation by gradually stopping eating and becoming less active, it seems she's naturally transitioning into hibernation mode earlier than usual. You can start by gradually moving her to cooler areas, and if the outside temperature remains inconsistent, using the fridge method could be a safe alternative. Remember to monitor her weight during hibernation to ensure she’s maintaining it properly.

[dorkins]

Thank you all for this information, sadly I lost my wife in March this year so I am now the custodian of her 60+ year old spur thighed she found as an adult in 1969, he has always gone into hibernation in Sept/Oct and wakes Dec/Jan where he is kept indoors under lamps until he can go outside, never been a problem, he has done the same this year, good weight, hydrated and in good health but yesterday the temperatures rose a bit and he came out of his box, he is monitored with a camera so it was quick to spot this, I have put him back into his box and the forecast (Essex, UK) is for lower temps, he had been in his box for about 2 weeks, should I leave him be or fully wake him and keep him non hibernating? I could, if necessary, transfer him to a commercial bottle cooler that has stable temperatures but a little reluctant to go down this route as it is a break in his normal routine and the cooler is big and relatively expensive to run! but I need to do the best for him and of course, my wife.

Thank you for your advice

[Nina]

Hi Dorkins, and welcome to The Tortoise Table.

First of all, I'm very sorry that your wife passed away this year -- I know how devastating that must be, and I hope that the fact you still have her tortoise is of some comfort to you.

Regarding hibernation. Can you tell me how long your tortoise had been in hibernation before he emerged for a while yesterday? In general, if a tortoise wakes during proper hibernation then it's not wise to put them back, because each year they have a set amount of glycogen, which is released into their blood stream upon wakening, and this gives them a good start, encouraging appetite, etc. (and once that glycogen is used there is no more until next year). However, if your tortoise hasn't been down for very long, then he might not have been properly and deeply into hibernation, and it is probably OK to put him back.

Also, can you tell me where he is hibernating (in a shed, garage, brick-built outbuilding, etc.), as that could be a factor too. It is excellent that he is monitored by a camera, so you were able to get him back in his box quickly.

Most of us now do use fridges to hibernate tortoises, but as yours has always used the box method, it would be preferable to allow him to continue with that this year. The problem with box hibernation is, as you have seen, when temperatures rise, and if the temperatures are warm for some time then the tortoise might not want to eat, but he might be losing body fat. And if his box is in a place that isn't protected from frost, then if we have a long period of below-zero temperatures then the cold will eventually get to him in his box and soft tissues can freeze. However, a box in a brick-built building is usually fine, and most people also have a small heater (one of those tubular oil-filled heaters work well and don't use a lot of electricity) on a thermostat so that if the temperature in the building drops below about 1C or 2C it will go on and prevent it from actually reaching 0C in the room (and then will go off again once the temperature rises to 2C).

Best wishes,
Nina

[dorkins]

Hi Nina, thank you for your condolences and advice. He had not been "boxed" for long, maybe a couple of weeks but at relatively warm temps, ie 14 degC upto the 18 deg C that caused him to come out of his box, I don't think he had been anywhere near hibernation state, just snoozing as it was relatively cool and the light levels were low and undisturbed.
I have decided to hibernate him in a portacabin office that we used for our business and I still use for the computers, it is a good office, safe and secure from furry visitors, dry and insulated, I chose it over the shed we have used before since last year mice had stashed stolen bird seed in his box! the portacabin is also a more stable temperature compared to the shed.
As well as the camera I have a remote monitor for temperature and a small warm air blower set at "frost free" but I can easily adjust it manually if necessary.
I would prefer him to hibernate as usual in his box, that is also insulated as he knows the routine, however, the temperatures now are so unpredictable and looking to the future I have at my disposal a commercial bottle cooler that again I can monitor the temperature,this can be set to cool anything from about 3 degC to about 15 degC and is stable and accurate, as with the portacabin I am able to check him several times a day, again in an insulated portacabin that I have never known to freeze inside. I think I am over concerned as he does his own thing every year and has for the last 60+ but I would be devastated if I got it wrong!
Thanks again, Nigel.

[Nina]

Hi Nigel,

If he hadn't been boxed up for long then he almost certainly wasn't properly in hibernation and you can safely put him back. Hopefully he didn't dehydrate in the time he was awake, but unless he had a wee then he should be fine.

There are several factors that indicate you should bring a tortoise out of hibernation and wake him up. One is if he loses too much weight during hibernation. The guideline used to be that a tortoise shouldn't lose more than 10% of his body weight during the hibernation period, but now the advice is that if he loses more than 1% in any one month that he should be wakened, and I would say that over the total period of hibernation he shouldn't lose more than 5% or 6% of body weight.

Did you weigh him before he went into hibernation? If not then don't worry, but it might be a good idea to weigh him now (just bring him out of his box in very dim light and quickly weigh him on some digital scales and then put him back (you can put a tin of beans or something on the scales before you turn them on, and then sit him on top of that tin and weigh him quickly -- like this photo from our section on how to weigh and measure a tortoise https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... measuring/ Or if he is very large or you don't have digital kitchen scales, you can use bathroom scales -- see the instructions in the article. It's useful to know how much he weighs at the beginning of hibernation and how much at the end, but if you feel that weighing him so soon after putting him back into his box the other day might disturb him too much, then don't bother and I'm sure he will be fine.

The other reason for waking a tortoise and cutting short a hibernation period is if the tortoise urinates during hibernation. They need to go into hibernation with an empty stomach but a full bladder, so that they don't dehydrate during the hibernation period, so weighing quickly and in dim light every month and checking for signs of urination is recommended.

Here is the Tortoise Trust's article on 'safer hibernation' and although much of it you will already know, there are some interesting bits of information there and the article is worth reading. http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/n ... ation.html

Your portakabin sounds ideal for hibernation, especially if you can prevent the temperature from getting down to 0 degrees, and you do want the temperature to stay below 9C if possible (the ideal hibernating temperature is 5C, but a few degrees above and below that are fine). And I think you are right to let him continue to hibernate in his box this year because, as you say, it is what he is used to, and as he has started his hibernation in the box, it is preferable to let him continue to use it, but in the safest conditions possible, and you have obviously thought about the risks and have made provisions to avoid them. In future you might want to seriously consider using your cooler for hibernation. What most of us do is to monitor the temperature in the fridge or cooler by using a digital fridge/freezer thermometer where the display unit sits outside the fridge and a probe on the end of a wire goes into the fridge itself. These usually have a useful Max/Min facility so that you can see how warm or cold it got since you last looked (something like this https://www.pharmacy-equipment.co.uk/pr ... er-tmm105/ ).

Please don't hesitate to contact us if you have any more questions or concerns, but it sounds to me like you have everything in hand, and I hope I've not overloaded with information and causing unnecessary concern! From what you have told me, I am sure that he will do well under your care, as he has for many years, and that he will wake in the New Year full of vim and vigour and that you will continue to enjoy his company for many years to come.

Nina

[dorkins]

Thanks so much Nina, I did weigh and measure him before I boxed him using the Jacksons ratio calculator and he was spot on the recommended weight so I will check him throughout his hibernation, there has been no further activity from him so hopefully it will cool sufficiently to hibernate properly, I will check his box at the same time for signs of him having a wee.
I will certainly read up on your links.
I have bought a thermometer as you have described and it sends a constant stream of info to an app along with text warning in case of low or high temperatures I guess with climate change we will experience increasing problems with temperatures affecting hibernation bit like the squirrels who rarely hibernate now! I will get the cooler set up and available so if needed it will be ready.
Thanks again and I am glad I found the forum and look forward to some reading!

[dorkins]

Hi Nina
The continuing saga! possibly/probably my own overthinking things, previously I asked for advice on my spur thighed who wound down successfully but wouldn't go into full hibernation due to temperatures being too high, we had been using the box method successfully for 55 odd years? Because of the loss of my wife it is now my responsibility and decided because of the higher temperatures and the likelyhood this is going to be an ongoing problem I have decided to go with the fridge method, I have now got this stabilised and he has been in the fridge for about a week now and the temps are settled around 5/6 deg C with much constant monitoring!

The question I have now is regarding weight loss, he had wound down for about 3 weeks, he was boxed on the 24th sept, he weighed 1278g and according to the Jacksons ratio was spot on for hibernating, he was boxed, quiet but not asleep for around 3 weeks, when I checked him he was very slow but eyes open so I took the opportunity to weigh him again, he weighed 1240g, a loss of 39g, I then put him in the fridge this was on 16th Oct, today, 21st Oct, he appeared to be fully asleep and I checked his weight which was 1212g, a loss of a further 18g, should I give him more time to see if this loss slows up? I think the majority of the weight loss is because he has effectively being winding down/not fully hibernating/not feeding for 5 weeks and only fully asleep for less than1 week.
Would really appreciate your advice before I lose even more weight!!

[Nina]

Hi Nigel,

I wouldn't panic yet (although that is easy to say -- I often think that I worry more about the welfare of my tortoises than I ever did about my son when he was growing up).

It's good that you've got him in the fridge and a perfect temperature (I'm assuming that this is a fridge without an ice-making compartment). Do you have a thermometer that will measure the maximum and minimum temperature of the fridge? It's the sort with a display unit that can sit outside on top of the fridge and a probe that goes into the box with the tortoise inside the fridge, and has a Max/Min facility so that you can see how warm or cold it got since you last looked. Like this one: https://www.pharmacy-equipment.co.uk/pr ... er-tmm105/ . I assume you are also opening the door for about 5 seconds each day to give an exchange of air (although if you skip a day there is no harm done).

Regarding the weight loss, most of that was when he was in a warmer environment than the fridge, and so I would expect him to lose a bit more then, and given his total weight I don't think you need to be too concerned. As you have said, he was effectively winding down in that first period, so that weight loss is understandable. The weight loss since he has been in the fridge shouldn't continue once he has settled down. I would leave him there for at least another three weeks before you weigh him again, so that he can settle into hibernation properly. If your fridge has a glass front then you should cover it so that no light can get in.

They used to say that a tortoise shouldn't lose more than 10% of his body weight in hibernation, and your tortoise is a long way from that, but the latest thinking is that they shouldn't lose more than 1% per month (which in your case would be just under 13g). Once he settles down I would expect weight loss to be minimal. The one thing you do have to look out for is if he urinates in hibernation. If he does have a wee then you need to wake him up, because he will be in danger of dehydrating.

I hope that helps, and do keep us updated on his progress, and if you have any further worries, please don't hesitate to get in touch again.

Nina

[dorkins]

Thank you Nina, no there is no ice box, rather than rely solely on the fridge thermostat, the power supply to the fridge is via a thermostatic controlled plug, like the timers but controlled by temperature from a probe in the actual box he is in, more accurate than the fridge thermostat, so the power is switched off and on at the preset temps along with alarms.
The external thermometer display (using another probe in the box, sends temps to my phone along with a date and 24 hour graph, the thermometer display is monitored by a camera and sent to the screen inside my house along with other cameras so I can see it everytime I look at the monitor screen.
There was no wee when I weighed him, the fridge has a solid door, I used this as the cooler I was going to use had too greater temp range, all appears to have settled down and my stress levels are a little less now!

I do have another question, in the past using the box method I would assume he decided to come out of hibernation due to temps warming up again but he always seemed to do this at Christmas! so what triggered him getting up I don't really know!
I would be happier with him having a shorter hibernation (less worrying time for me) and presumably I will have to start to increase the fridge temps to achieve this, how long would you recommend? he has always spent quite a time indoors as it was still winter outside, providing heat and light is not a problem.
Thank you for all your help, I will try and find the donation button

[Nina]

Hi Nigel,
Just getting into bed, as I have an early start tomorrow, so I’ll answer your questions tomorrow if that’s OK, but just wanted to say please don’t donate, as we have enough funds at the moment, so thanks so much for the generous thought, but we are fine for the time being.

Nina

[dorkins]

No problem, well that's a first, never had a donation refused before - well done tortoise table

[Nina]

Hi Nigel,

It sounds to me like you got it well in hand, and you are much more tech savy than I am (the thermostatically controlled plug and the data that is sent to your phone with a graph, etc.) -- I'm well impressed!

Regarding waking him up from hibernation, you could gradually raise the temperature in the fridge, and that might work fine, but most of us just decide when to get them out of the fridge, take them out and then follow the standard procedure for waking. Here's an article on that:
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 080608.pdf
It covers box and fridge hibernation and basically if he's in a fridge, you just decide when to take him out, put him in a warmish, but not too brightly lit place for an hour or two, and then put him in his table or indoor enclosure at the far end from the heat source, to allow him to gradually get warmer and then he can walk to the lamp and bask.

I think you are right to give him a shorter hibernation, especially as he had that period when he was not really hibernating and lost the weight. How long are you planning to give him?

Nina

[dorkins]

All good so far and no doubt everything over the top but it makes me happier (and I like buying toys) as to hibernation time, I was thinking along his usual time of the end of December which would give him about 10 weeks but I would welcome your advice.
PS subject to weight checks etc

[qatimatoqa]

It sounds like your 85-year-old tortoise knows what she wants! Since she's preparing early, gradual cooling is a good approach. If outdoor temps stay stable, traditional hibernation should work; otherwise, the fridge method is a safe alternative. Monitor her weight, ensure hydration, and wake her gradually if using a fridge. She sounds very resilient—she’ll be fine!