Small George/worms

[Twigtitus]

Hi guys,

I have a horsefield, had him for around 2 years now. Its come to my attention that I've been given poor advice repeatedly on how to keep him and I'm worried about it so here I am to try and put it right.

First of all the place we brought him from gave information to feed him normal household items such as cucumber etc, I found that was wrong so I've been feeding him things from the garden (dandelion leaves/flowers regularly and the odd other thing like rose petals and other leaves that I've found here that is ok to use)


Usually George is quite the greedy boy (could be female) and eats everything I give him.

I have him in a glass tank which I know isn't ideal but it does have a mesh roof for air ventilation. UV is kept on for 12 hours a day, so is his basking lamp. His basking lamp is kept at one end of his tank (4ft) to provide space for him to go if he gets too warm.

I was told recently that because of it being summer I can lower his asking lamp to a 60W bulb because of it being warmer. Since doing this he's been quite sleepy and after googling I've read that because my room being none sun facing he might be too cold and thinking it's time to hibernate. I changed his bulb back yesterday.

This morning I removed him from his bed and put him under his lamp where he seemed a little more alert than he has for the last week or so. He pooped and I moved it somewhere else in his tank to remove it later (when my toddlers sneaky hands were further away)

When I came to remove it I noticed it was full of white worms! After googling I found to see them in the feaces means they are really contaminated

I called around and found a reptile vet and have just come back.

He's told me the way I'm keeping him has made him ill. I was advices previously that top soil from a garden centre is fine to use for his habitat, but the vet advices me otherwise because of it being full of germs and bugs etc and that's why he probably has worms

I'm unsure what to do now as the vet gave very mixed advice, he told me I should be using wood chippings snd when I said that I'd read that isn't true he said I can buy dirt from pet shops?

What should I be using?

He hacked him over and said he's a lot smaller than he should be and that his shell isn't as sturdy as it should be too.

Please help me, I want to keep him healthy and happy.

[lin]

Oh dear. It is so confusing when we start hearing suck conflicting advise, but the main thing is dont panic.

If you can send in a pic or two of his setup and how you have it it could help us in helping out in what you can do to better things but it dont seem you are doing to bad yourself so well done to you.

Can I ask if your vet is a specialist reptile vet that deals with tortoises as it dont sound like he is giving you the right advise. We do have a list of recomended vets in the UK here -- http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tort ... s-by-area/

As you have said that the viv isnt ideal I would agree with you there but if you for now remove all the substrate and replace it with paper until the worm situation is sorted it will be easier to clean (please make sure hygiene is kept to a maximun with a little one around though).
What did he (the vet) do or suggest to treat the worms.

Regarding the substrate, once the worms have gone you can look at out suggested setups and how to make them here -- http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tort ... se-tables/
where in the last photos you can see its a steralised topsoil and childrens playsand topsoil in use (some keepers will use the coco coir thats in bricks and moisture is needed to expand them).

You can see other info here as well that is very useful -- http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tort ... r-housing/

Did the vet suggest anything for the shell, is it very soft or did he mean something different. Can you tell us what vitamins you are offering him and how much calcium he gets on a daily basis. Usually it is lack of calcium that can cause the shell to soften but other things could cause it so it would be good to know exactly what the vet said.

Again photos help more than anything and if you can send in some, also let us know the temps in the viv, the hottest and coolest there is, how you measure those temps and pics of your tortoise would be great.

Looking forward to seeing pics and your reply.

Lin

[Nina]

Hi Twigtitus (sorry, I don't know your name),

I'm sorry to hear about George's worms (but it's a common problem and easy to get rid of). Did the vet treat George for his worms, and if so do you know what medicine he used?

I'm really surprised that he told you to keep him on wood bark, as most vets would advise against that because bark can harbour moisture and grow mould. We always try to keep tortoises on a substrate that is most like what they would live on in the wild, and most Medierranean species (including Horsfields) live on a very sandy, dry soil. So we buy bags of sterilised topsoil from garden centres (this has been heat treated so there are no germs or worm eggs in it) and then we mix it with children's playsand (also purchased at garden centres)-- usually about 50/50, but many people use a slightly higher percentage of topsoil -- so maybe 60/40 or 70/30, and then we give it a light spray every day or two so that it doesn't get dusty. Your vet is right in saying the you can buy bags of sand/soil substrate from pet shops -- it's called Tortoise Life and has tiny bits of calcium in it too. I've used it and it is fine, but really not much different from mixing sterilised topsoil and children's playsand yourself, which is far, far cheaper.

Re the heat/light. You can often reduce the size of the bulb you use in summer because the room itself will be warmer -- but remember that you want as bright a light as possible for your tortoise. I agree with all that Lin has said, and remember when you are measuring the temperature you want the thermometer to be directly under the heat source and about the height of George's shell (a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall will not give you an accurate reading). Does George have access to a secure area outdoors when the sun is out?

Lin is right in that while the worming medicine is doing it's thing, it's a good idea to have newspaper on the floor of the enclosure, so that it can be changed every day and George doesn't accidentally ingest some of the worms and eggs that he is expelling. When his worms are cleared he should be his old self again.

Some photos would be great to see, and as Lin said -- just a little tweaking might do the trick. You obviously want the very best for George, and well done for trying to improve his environment!

Nina

[Twigtitus]

Thank you both for your replies, I'll attach a few photos in a moment.

I called around 4 vets yesterday, the last one I called said they did deal with reptiles but aren't in any means experts so they gave me details of someone else that is and I took him there. According to them and their website they deal with all things but are known mostly for reptile care.

That's why I thought I'd check his advice because I'm sure when we had George that I had read not to use wood clippings and dirt was the best but I was worried I was wrong. I'll post a photo of the dirt I'm using, I haven't been mixing it with sand though as I did read previously it irritates their eyes but if that's what your suggesting is right then I can do that.

The vet gave him panacur for his worms, because of him being so small he said he only needs 0.01ml which just about fills the top of the syringe so as you can imagine I'm not looking forward to giving him that today as it's going to be a nightmare with it being so tiny and only have one set of hands.

The vet didn't suggest anything for his shell, while he was examining him he basically turned him over and pushed on the bottom of his shell and saw that his legs bulged when he pushed so he suggested that shouldn't happen as by now his shell shouldn't be much harder but in fact is too soft.

I sprinkle some Komodo vegetable booster for tortoises on his food, this is what I was told by the store I brought him would give him enough calcium to keep his shell healthy. Is this correct? If not what should I be doing?

I'll measure the temperature of both ends of his tank and post photos.

[Twigtitus]

Home

[Nina]

Hi and many thanks for the photos. He's a lovely little tortoise and I think you have made him a nice environment in that tank. It's not of course ideal to have a glass tank, but with the top completely open it does make a difference and goes a long way towards having the sort of open air environment that he needs. It will be interesting to see what temperatures you are getting. Lots of people use those fridge thermometers (with a digital display unit and then a long wire with a probe on the end, and you can hang the probe down into the tank as near to the circle of light given out by the lamp as possible. Like this only you can get them cheaper (and many have a Max/Min function so you can see the hottest and the coolest it got since you last re-set it) http://tinyurl.com/yctznuey

One thing you need to do is to get a reflector for your UVB tube. The UVB given out by the tubes has a potential to damage your eyesight if you look into it, and you can buy cheap reflectors that just clip onto the light at most pet shops. It's basically a curved piece of aluminium that clips on and protects your eyes when you are looking down from above, and it also directs up to 30% more of the UBV rays from the lamp down into the tank, which is beneficial for the tortoise. Like this http://tinyurl.com/y6wmla22 If you have had that tube for more than a year or two though, it will need replacing, because although the light will still be coming through the UVB rays won't.

In order for George to metabolise the calcium in his diet he needs UVB, and this is why your tube is so important, and it is also really good if he can get outdoors as much as possible as the UVB from the sun is much better than from the lamps we have indoors. The UVB works on the tortoise's skin and helps him produce Vitamin D3, and this is what he needs to metabolise the calcium. And that is why we sprinkle a good Calcium and D3 supplement on their food. The best one is Nutrobal, and you can also get this at pet shops. You only need to sprinkle a tiny bit on George's food (and if you wet the food it will help the powder to stick). The Komodo product you are using might have calcium but does it also have Vitamin D3?

Re the Panacur, that is the right medicine. Do you have the liquid or the paste to give him? If paste the best thing to do is to smear it on thin slices of cucumber (torts love cucumber so it's great for administering medicine). I also have given the liquid Panacur on paper thin slices of cucumber, but it's tricky as you have to roll it a bit into a curve to hold the liquid and then make sure you tip it into his mouth when he goes for a bite and that it doesn't run off.

Re the topsoil and sand. We use sand because it provides a looser substrate and most approximates their natural habitat, but topsoil on its own is OK. Do give it a bit of a spray every couple of days though so it doesn't get too dusty.

Let us know how you get on -- and I do think that George is handsome little tortoise and well done for trying to give him the best life.

Nina

[Twigtitus]

The medicine he's given is liquid, I managed to get everything I could out of the syringe into his mouth this morning quite easily thankfully! Although he's still hardly moved today. We are just about to give him a bath.

I've purchased the uv cover you suggested and the stuff you have suggested is better to add to his food. I've also brought some seeds to grow some other types of weeds for him to eat. His UV is only a few months old.

I've checked the temperatures in his home and under his lamp (at the height the top of his shell would be if he is right under it) is 41.6C and the cool end is reading at 25.6C is this ok? He's currently got a 100W basking bulb in but I do have 60Ws around too if the warm reading is too high.

Also with regards to putting him outside, I do have a back garden but I live in a town house and the only time the garden has any kind of sun is when the sun is setting and even then it only covers a quarter of the garden for a very short period of time. It's in the shade for the rest of the time.

[Twigtitus]

Although I have just realised my heating has been on for the last hour so usually it wouldn't be reading so warm in there as obviously it's summer and I wouldn't usually have my heating on!

[Nina]

Thanks for getting back so quickly and for getting the cover for the tube (it will save your eyesight!) and the Nutrobal. You so obviously want the best for George, and I think he is lucky to have found a home with you.

Very important-- 41.6C is way, way too hot for George! I don't know if you still think in 'old money', but 41.6C equates to nearly 107F. 30C is what you are aiming for under the lamp, so either move it higher up, away from the tank, or get a lower watt bulb. You want it to be about 30C at the hot end and 20C at the cool end. The temperature in the enclosure is affected by the ambient temperature in your room, so on a hot summer's day it might be difficult to get a reading of 20C at the cool end -- and on a cold winter's day it might be difficult to get it up to 30C at the hot end, so you need to be able to raise and lower the bulb to get it right. Anything higher than about 34C - 35C becomes dangerous for a tortoise, and they are at risk of dehydrating rapidly or suffering from those high temperatures if they can't move to somewhere cooler (but at least you have a cooler end to the enclosure).

To keep him hydrated, do make sure that he has nice warm baths every day for now (every other day later) in water up to where his top shell meets his bottom shell (up to hs chin), in something that he can't see out of (like an old washing up bowl) for about 15 - 20 minutes. The added advantage of that is that he will most likely poo and wee in the bath and that saves you some cleaning of his enclosure.

Because tortoises are cold-blooded animals, they don't depend on their food intake to produce body heat like we do -- they need to wander in and out of warm and cool areas to regulate their body temperature. One of the problems with having a high-sided tank, especially if it is fully enclosed is that usually you can't get a good temperature gradation from one end to the other, so it is very good that you are getting such a wide difference in temperature from one end to the other in yours -- that means it's not doing a bad job, and if you can reduce that temperature at the hot end to around 30C then the cool end will probably be down to 20C or so, which is perfect.

That is great that he took his Panacur -- what a trooper he is!

Nina
P.S. have just read your latest post about the heating being on -- so maybe my panic wasn't warranted!

[Twigtitus]

I had my daughter in the bath yesterday so must of put the timer on the heating and forgot to turn it off, I hadn't even realised it was getting warm until I felt a radiator on while near it.

I'll switch his bulb to the 60w bulb for now (as I'm out most of tomorrow and make sure my heating is off) and re check the temperature tomorrow to see if it's closer to what you suggest.

Thank you so much for your help! I really appreciate it.

[Nina]

No problem, Twigtitus -- we're always glad to help (especially when such a lovely little Horsfield is concerned -- but then I'm prejudiced because I have Horsfields). You might be interested to know that the name 'Horsfield' has nothing to do with horses or fields -- it is named after a famous American naturalist, Thomas Horsfield, who lived from 1773 - 1859 and travelled the world collecting plants and animals.

Re the 60W bulb -- that should be fine in the short term, but tortoises really do like a bright light to be active, and obviously the light from a 60W bulb is not as bright as that from a higher wattage, but in the short term it's best to get the temperature in his enclosure right.

Cheers,
Nina

[Twigtitus]

Hi Nina,

I came home yesterday to a very lifeless George. I first thought he was sleeping but bathed him and put him back and he literally hasn't moved at all since I put him back. Usually he draws his back legs in as he doesn't like them to be touched but nothing. I read that it's best to leave them a few days to make sure they are dead as they can sometimes appear to be but aren't.

If I'm honest I'm not that hopeful

[Nina]

Oh my goodness, I am so sorry to hear this -- and so sorry that no one has responded to this post from yesterday! I went to Brussels early yesterday and didn't arrive back until about half an hour ago, but someone else should have been around and responded. I don't know what to say -- this is terrible! I think you should take him back to the vet as soon as possible, and if he is dead then the vet should do a post mortem to determine the cause of death. My heart goes out to you, as I know you have tried so hard to give George a good life -- you must be devastated.

Please let us know what happens, and we are really very sorry for this very sad outcome.

Nina


wigtitus wrote:
> Hi Nina,
>
> I came home yesterday to a very lifeless George. I first thought he was
> sleeping but bathed him and put him back and he literally hasn't moved at
> all since I put him back. Usually he draws his back legs in as he doesn't
> like them to be touched but nothing. I read that it's best to leave them a
> few days to make sure they are dead as they can sometimes appear to be but
> aren't.
>
> If I'm honest I'm not that hopeful

[lin]

Oh no. I also cant understand why we wasnt notified of your message and cant understand why.

This is so sad and I agree with what Nina ia saying. I wouldn't have thought that a worm load, unless it was so severe would have done this and do wonder if there was an underlying problem that may not have surfaced yet.
Hugs are sent to you.

Lin



Twigtitus wrote:
> Hi Nina,
>
> I came home yesterday to a very lifeless George. I first thought he was
> sleeping but bathed him and put him back and he literally hasn't moved at
> all since I put him back. Usually he draws his back legs in as he doesn't
> like them to be touched but nothing. I read that it's best to leave them a
> few days to make sure they are dead as they can sometimes appear to be but
> aren't.
>
> If I'm honest I'm not that hopeful

[Teddy28]

So sorry to read this sad story, really feel for you
xx