3 month old Hermanns Tortoise
3 month old Hermanns Tortoise
We recently bought a 3 month old hermanns tortoise. I did research beforehand and everything I read said not to put a Hermanns tortoise in a viv so we got a table for him. The reptile shop I bought him from had him in a viv and said that a viv was better for him but was ok with me putting him in a table. I have a tortoise 'expert' on reddit also saying that he should be in a viv and not a table stating 'An open top enclosure is only suitable for older arid/temperate species. For young tortoises and tropical species you NEED a closed chamber to hold humidity for their health and smooth shell growth. Ideally grow tents but alternatively for youngsters a 4-6ft vivarium' He says that his professor is the best exotic vet in the UK and use to own a exotic zoo so he trusts him and his advice. Am I wrong for having him in a table ?
Re: 3 month old Hermanns Tortoise
Hi and welcome to The Tortoise Table and thanks for posting. Congratulations on getting your Hermann's tortoise.
Oh dear, there is such misinformation on the internet, and I know how confusing that can be.
First of all you are absolutely right to have your Hermann''s tortoise in a table and definitely not in a viv. I would be very interested to know the name of the exotic vet who says that young tortoises should be kept in a viv -- could you possibly email me his name so that I can check up on him? We do tend to know the names of many of the most reputable exotics vets in the country and I'd just like to check up on his qualifications. You can email me at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk
There are several reasons why vivs are bad environments for tortoises (they are fine for snakes and lizards but can be death traps and are not good for tortoises).
Tortoises are ectothermic (they don't make their own body heat like mammals, but rely on the temperature of their environment to produce their body heat, and they need to wander from warm zones to cooler zones to thermoregulate, and you want a temperature grade between 30C at the warm end and 20C at the cool end. Most vivs, because of their enclosed nature, do not allow such a temperature gradient. It's true that a 6 foot long vivarium would probably allow that temperature range, but there are other reasons why vivs are bad.
Most vivs are high sided but don't have a huge amount of floor space. This is good for snakes and lizards which like to climb up branches etc. in the viv, but tortoises are confined to the floor. Tortoises get bored in small spaces and the larger the table the better.
Tortoises need a well-ventilated environment, and vivs with vents for air circulation just don't provide enough ventilation and this can lead to respiratory problems.
Here is an article from The Tortoise Trust about why vivariums are not good environments for tortoises: https://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivarium.htm
and here is another article from The Tortoise Trust reviewing a typical vivarium regarding its suitability as a home for a tortoise: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivreport2.html . There are reports on several other vivarium designs too, but the conclusions are pretty much the same.
Grow tents can be a reasonable alternative if the walls are of mesh and allow adequate ventilation, but they take up a lot of space, and a tortoise table is the best environment. You can maintain adequate humidity by using a soil and sand based substrate that is kept very slightly damp (not wet at all). You can also build humid hide for your tortoise and we can send you an article on that if you are interested.
If you'd like to send us a photo of your table, we'd be happy to have a look at it and make suggestions of little tweaks if necessary, but I'm so glad that you got a table instead of a viv. Many people are mis-sold vivariums by pet shops and then end up with real health problems, and we have several articles on how to convert a vivarium into a tortoise table.
I hope that helps, and please don't hesitate to come back with any questions, etc. You probably already have a good care sheet for Hermann's, but if not then here is a link to one: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf
Nina
Oh dear, there is such misinformation on the internet, and I know how confusing that can be.
First of all you are absolutely right to have your Hermann''s tortoise in a table and definitely not in a viv. I would be very interested to know the name of the exotic vet who says that young tortoises should be kept in a viv -- could you possibly email me his name so that I can check up on him? We do tend to know the names of many of the most reputable exotics vets in the country and I'd just like to check up on his qualifications. You can email me at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk
There are several reasons why vivs are bad environments for tortoises (they are fine for snakes and lizards but can be death traps and are not good for tortoises).
Tortoises are ectothermic (they don't make their own body heat like mammals, but rely on the temperature of their environment to produce their body heat, and they need to wander from warm zones to cooler zones to thermoregulate, and you want a temperature grade between 30C at the warm end and 20C at the cool end. Most vivs, because of their enclosed nature, do not allow such a temperature gradient. It's true that a 6 foot long vivarium would probably allow that temperature range, but there are other reasons why vivs are bad.
Most vivs are high sided but don't have a huge amount of floor space. This is good for snakes and lizards which like to climb up branches etc. in the viv, but tortoises are confined to the floor. Tortoises get bored in small spaces and the larger the table the better.
Tortoises need a well-ventilated environment, and vivs with vents for air circulation just don't provide enough ventilation and this can lead to respiratory problems.
Here is an article from The Tortoise Trust about why vivariums are not good environments for tortoises: https://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivarium.htm
and here is another article from The Tortoise Trust reviewing a typical vivarium regarding its suitability as a home for a tortoise: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivreport2.html . There are reports on several other vivarium designs too, but the conclusions are pretty much the same.
Grow tents can be a reasonable alternative if the walls are of mesh and allow adequate ventilation, but they take up a lot of space, and a tortoise table is the best environment. You can maintain adequate humidity by using a soil and sand based substrate that is kept very slightly damp (not wet at all). You can also build humid hide for your tortoise and we can send you an article on that if you are interested.
If you'd like to send us a photo of your table, we'd be happy to have a look at it and make suggestions of little tweaks if necessary, but I'm so glad that you got a table instead of a viv. Many people are mis-sold vivariums by pet shops and then end up with real health problems, and we have several articles on how to convert a vivarium into a tortoise table.
I hope that helps, and please don't hesitate to come back with any questions, etc. You probably already have a good care sheet for Hermann's, but if not then here is a link to one: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf
Nina
Re: 3 month old Hermanns Tortoise
Thanks for getting back to me. Unfortunately, they didn't say the name of their professors. This is what she stated ' I’m listening to my degree, my experience working in an accredited zoo, the advice of the best exotic vet in the uk, my professor who used to own and run a zoo and has plenty of up to date experience with tortoises, and my own experience rescuing and raising them since I was 13'
The are commenting on everyones posts telling them that only adult Hermanns should go in a tables, juveniles should be in a grow tent or greenhouse type setup. I don't know if they are a mod on the Tortoise reddit page but you would think someone else would speak up but no one has. The funny thing is that they seem to be a member here because they are linking people on Reddit here telling them to check you guys out because you have such a good amount of information about Tortoises.I had to laugh because being a member here they would know that everyone here thinks vivs are a no no.
I am using s soil/sand mix and we have a UVB 12% and a 75 watt basking lamp. We use a temperature probe to keep an eye on the temperature and under the light it's approx 31°. , we have a lamp stand so we can adjust the basking lamp higher/lower if needed. I'll try and take some photos in the next day or 2.
The are commenting on everyones posts telling them that only adult Hermanns should go in a tables, juveniles should be in a grow tent or greenhouse type setup. I don't know if they are a mod on the Tortoise reddit page but you would think someone else would speak up but no one has. The funny thing is that they seem to be a member here because they are linking people on Reddit here telling them to check you guys out because you have such a good amount of information about Tortoises.I had to laugh because being a member here they would know that everyone here thinks vivs are a no no.
I am using s soil/sand mix and we have a UVB 12% and a 75 watt basking lamp. We use a temperature probe to keep an eye on the temperature and under the light it's approx 31°. , we have a lamp stand so we can adjust the basking lamp higher/lower if needed. I'll try and take some photos in the next day or 2.
Re: 3 month old Hermanns Tortoise
Well, if you are still corresponding on that forum maybe you could ask her the name of her professor/exotic vet -- just out of curiosity.
I'm afraid there are many forums and discussions where people set themselves up as experts and either knowingly or unknowingly spread misinformation. I'm not aware of this Reddit group, but I do know of various Facebook groups where I wouldn't trust the advice. I think it's wise to trust the advice of long established and recognised experts like The Tortoise Trust and the British Chelonia Group (BCG). Here is a page from the BCG Vets Corner section, where vets write in about various things. In the second letter down a vet talks about why vivariums are bad for tortoises: http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/ ... /hatchling
From your description, it sound to me like you've made a good set-up for your tortoise, with the right substrate, temperatures, etc. It's important to measure the temperature directly under the heat source and at the height of the tortoise's shell, rather than with a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall (which will give a much lower temperature). I'm not sure what your table is like, but personally I always like to put in a second level in my tables (accessed by a ramp), as that gives the tortoise more interest and provides the opportunity for more exercise. Here's a photo of my table (but I've changed the lighting arrangements since that photo was taken).
[attachment=2]IMG_9495 [Desktop Resolution].JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=0]IMG_9954 (Copy).JPG[/attachment][attachment=1]IMG_9953 (Copy).JPG[/attachment]
This is a 7' long table, but I've also put a ramp into a 4' table that I had, and it worked well.
Nina
I'm afraid there are many forums and discussions where people set themselves up as experts and either knowingly or unknowingly spread misinformation. I'm not aware of this Reddit group, but I do know of various Facebook groups where I wouldn't trust the advice. I think it's wise to trust the advice of long established and recognised experts like The Tortoise Trust and the British Chelonia Group (BCG). Here is a page from the BCG Vets Corner section, where vets write in about various things. In the second letter down a vet talks about why vivariums are bad for tortoises: http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/ ... /hatchling
From your description, it sound to me like you've made a good set-up for your tortoise, with the right substrate, temperatures, etc. It's important to measure the temperature directly under the heat source and at the height of the tortoise's shell, rather than with a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall (which will give a much lower temperature). I'm not sure what your table is like, but personally I always like to put in a second level in my tables (accessed by a ramp), as that gives the tortoise more interest and provides the opportunity for more exercise. Here's a photo of my table (but I've changed the lighting arrangements since that photo was taken).
[attachment=2]IMG_9495 [Desktop Resolution].JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=0]IMG_9954 (Copy).JPG[/attachment][attachment=1]IMG_9953 (Copy).JPG[/attachment]
This is a 7' long table, but I've also put a ramp into a 4' table that I had, and it worked well.
Nina
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Re: 3 month old Hermanns Tortoise
She won't give me her professors name. She said that I was trying to get her to dox their professor so I could stalk them lol
I just pointed out that she keeps linking people to the Tortoise Table saying they have great information about Tortoise which seems weird because she's telling people to put juvenile tortoises in a viv which you guys clearly don't recommend.
I just pointed out that she keeps linking people to the Tortoise Table saying they have great information about Tortoise which seems weird because she's telling people to put juvenile tortoises in a viv which you guys clearly don't recommend.
Re: 3 month old Hermanns Tortoise
Oh dear me, I'm not sure about her at all, and I don't know of any exotics vet who used to own a zoo (but I just might not have heard of him). When she calls him her 'professor', is that because she's studying veterinary medicine? I'm not sure that Reddit discussion group is worth following -- there are plenty more long-standing groups that give out good advice too.
The Tortoise Trust FB group has lots of members and gives expert advice: https://www.facebook.com/groups/389277208313919 and we also have a Facebook page that Lin runs: https://www.facebook.com/TheTortoiseTable and there are others too. I used to participate in lots of discussion groups but don't really have time any more, but I'll ask Lin if she knows of other good groups.
Cheers,
Nina
The Tortoise Trust FB group has lots of members and gives expert advice: https://www.facebook.com/groups/389277208313919 and we also have a Facebook page that Lin runs: https://www.facebook.com/TheTortoiseTable and there are others too. I used to participate in lots of discussion groups but don't really have time any more, but I'll ask Lin if she knows of other good groups.
Cheers,
Nina
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