Struggling to vary my tortoise's diet in winter

[Horsefieldable]

Can anyone help me with suggestions to vary my tortoise's diet. He is a very peculiar horsefield tortoise as he self hibernates in summer (usually around July) and wakes up in November/December. He is 8 years old and has done this as long as I have had him - 5 years. Nothing will stop him winding down and hibernating. This means that my tortoise hardly spends anytime out in the garden or eating a varied diet. It is nearly impossible to find any weeds that grow in winter. His diet currently is kale, wild rocket, baby leaf salad, occasionally dandelions or plantain. He has a vey healthy appetite! He also doesn't drink water but walks through it.
He loves to climb and has managed to move his bridge to the side of the tortoise table and jump out! (I have a raised tortoise table) I do have a wired lid to put over it but he gets his head stuck in the chicken wire so I have had to remove it. I'm also worried that he doesn't have a enhanced tortoise table and is bored. He has a bridge and a wooden tunnel which he does walk over and under but mainly spends all day basking or trying to climb out of the table.
I suppose I would say that I am a worried tortoise owner who is looking for some advise.
Thanks
Sarah

[Nina]

Hi Sarah and welcome to The Tortoise Table.

I will suggest some food that you can try with your tortoise, but first I hope you don't mind if I ask some questions and make some suggestions about your tortoise's hibernation instincts.

It is indeed very unusual for most species of tortoise to want to sleep in the summertime, but Horsfields have strong hibernation instincts, and I did know another Horsfield who exhibited similar behaviour. I have two Horsfields and they both start not wanting to wake up in the mornings around August, but because it is dangerous for them to be in warm temperatures and not eat or drink, I ensure that mine come out of that state and wake up and start eating again. It's not easy to do because they have very strong will power (as I'm sure you found out), but the best method is to wake him up every morning and put him under his basking light and offer some food. Mine will ignore that and go straight back to bed without eating or with maybe only a little nibble. I often offer the food by hand, or squeeze a bit of juice from a cucumber on it to tempt them. If he goes straight back to bed then put him back under the light again -- maybe two or three times, but not more because you don't want to stress him out. After about two weeks mine suddenly seem to break through some barrier and start getting themselves up again in the mornings and back to normal behaviour. Then I hibernate them properly in the winter.

Where is he between the months of July and November? Is he in his table, is he awake at all during that time, and does he eat or drink at all? Sorry for so many questions, but If he is hibernating (it's actually brumating, but we use the word 'hibernating' as that is what most people understand) then that would take place at very cold temperatures (between about 1C - 8C), so the tortoise's systems slow down. If he is in his tortoise table at normal room temperature, or with heat and lights on then he is not actually hibernating and over such a long period of time is at risk of becoming very dehydrated and also using up body fat. In any case, even when properly hibernating in cold temperatures it is best not to let a tortoise the size of a Horsfield hibernate for longer than around 12 or 13 weeks, because their immune system is compromised after that length of time.

Can I ask what the temperature is in your tortoise table at the times he is wanting to hibernate? You want to aim for a temperature of around 30C directly below his basking lamp (and measurerd at the height of his shell -- not by a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall), and also at the cool end of his enclosure. Temperature are super important for preventing lethargic behaviour in tortoises, and sometimes just a tweak of temperature will do the trick.

Also how big is the table (length and width). You are right in thinking that he needs an enhanced environment, but providing him with a bridge and a tunnel is excellent, and will help a lot. Tortoises do get bored if they can see from one end of their enclosure to the other end without interruption, so rocks, plants -- anything that breaks up the sight lines is good. It's also good to add a second level to your table, with a ramp leading up to it (obviously the walls have to be high enough on the second level to prevent escape). The area below the second level can function as a sleeping area and if you feed him on the top level then he will spend the day getting lots of exercise running up and down the ramp to see if there are any treats there for him.

Regarding food in winter -- it can be difficult, in addition to all of the foods you mention (which are very good, so well done!) There is a mixed salad called 'Florette Crispy' that you can buy in most supermarkets, but it's not quite as good as what you are already offering. There are other plants in the garden that you could feed at this time of year (the low-growing campanula is still around, some sowthistles, winter flowering pansies), and you can also buy seeds to grow especially for tortoises, and I can give you links to sites that sell them if you are interested. I used to grow plants for mine, and I sowed a succession of seeds in very small trays (sowing every couple of weeks), and so after one tray of plants was eaten, another would be nearly ready.

I'm sorry that this is such a long message, and I hope it doesn't put you off, because it sounds to me like you are a really excellent tortoise keeper! If you'd like to post a photo of your table, we could maybe suggest small tweaks that might make a difference for him.

Nina

[Horsefieldable]

Dear Nina

Thank you for getting back to me regarding Able. I will try my best to answer them as fully as I can.

During July what happens is he slowly stops eating - even his favorite food (rose petals) for about 2 weeks Goes into his bedding section of his table digs himself in a tiny bit and stays there. He doesn't come out again until the weather significantly cools down. During the time he moves himself around but never really moving from his corner. He doesn't eat or drink anything. I have tried moving him outside in his enclosure where there is shade and direct sunlight all day but he goes into the corner and refuses to move. I have done all of the things you have suggested but nothing stops him. Now that I know this is dangerous behavior I am really worried.
I am not sure what the temperature is as I do not have a thermometer, however, I use a combined UV and heat light. (Komodo Solar D3 UV 160W Basking Bulb, Heat and Light Bulb for Reptile Habitats, Reptile Bulbs, Terrarium and Vivarium Lighting and Heating Bulb) When under his light he is 12cm away from the top of his shell to lamp.
The tortoise table is 120cm x 60cm with a bedding area at the end with a cover. It only has 1 level adding a second level will enable him to climb out! I use top soil but it gets very dusty I water it but the smell is really bad even though I scoop the poo out. I had plants but he just walks over them determined to continue on his path to walk around his table. I used to let him out to walk around the house, but was told that his wasn't very good for him.
He also never drinks water. He just walks through his water bowl. I bath him once a week in warm water - should I bathe him more?

I have attached a photo of the table as it looks at the moment and what it did look like before he trampled on everything. I hope this helps.

Thanks
Sarah

[Krzysiek0]

The temperature could be a factor, so checking with a thermometer would help, especially to make sure the basking area isn’t too hot. You might want to reconsider using topsoil if it’s getting too dusty; a more moisture-retentive substrate could help with that. As for water, try placing him in a shallow dish for a few minutes so he has access to drink without being forced into it.

Since he's not eating or drinking, bathing him more often could help keep him hydrated. Keep an eye on his behavior and maybe consult a vet if you're really worried.

[Nina]

Hi Sarah,

i love the name Able, and you've created a really nice tortoise table for him, so well done for giving him a nice home.

I think I know what might be causing his behaviour in the summer. A 160W bulb is almost certainly way more than you need when the weather is warmer, and it might well be too hot in his table. Tortoises in the wild sometimes aestivate in the heat (it's a little like hibernation but in hot weather rather than cold), and also when it is very hot they often just stay in the shade a lot. The temperature in your table will be really affected by the temperature in the room, and when it is warm in the room you need to be able to raise your bulb up higher to lower the temperature in the table (and if it is very cold in the room then you might need to lower the bulb to increase the temperature). I normally have a 100W -- or occasionally a 120W bulb in my table in cold weather, but when it is warm I need to change the bulb to a 80W one to keep it from getting too hot in the table. I use an ordinary reptile bulb for heat and light and then have a UVB fluorescent tube for UVB, so it's easy for me to change the heat and light arrangements, but with your all-in-one bulb I can understand why it might be more difficult (and expensive) to have several bulbs that you can change to depending on the weather.

The one problem that we find with commercial tables, no matter how good they are (and yours seems good) -- is the fixed arm that the bulb socket is screwed into. The ideal arrangement is to have an arm like yours, but for the bulb to be hanging from that arm on a chain, and then you can raise and lower the chain to move the bulb up and down as necessary. I've attached a photo of a table with a heat/light bulb and also a fluorescent tube, but the main thing is that the heat/light bulb is hanging by a hook but also has the option to hang by a chain, and with 'S' hooks you can raise and lower that bulb.
[attachment=1]m_lamps hanging by chains.jpg[/attachment]

It is super important that you are able to measure the temperature at the hot end and the cool end of the table. Tortoises are ectothermic, meaning that they don't produce their own body temperature like mammals do, and they need to wander from warm to cool areas during the day to thermoregulate, and you want a hot area of 30C and a cool area of 20C to enable to him to do that. Once it gets to about 36C it becomes really dangerous for him, and with a 160W bulb it is possible that you are reaching temperatures that are too high, especially in the summer.

The best thermometers, I think, are the fridge/freezer thermometers with a digital display unit that you could sit outside the table (or on the top of your arm that holds the light maybe), and then the probe at the end of a cord hangs down so that it is within the circle of light given off by the bulb, and at the height of Able's shell. That will give you the temperature there, and you could have another one at the cool end if you want. You can get them in lots of places, but do get one with a Max/Min facility so that you can see how hot or how cold it got since you last checked. Here is where I get mine:
https://www.pharmacy-equipment.co.uk/pr ... er-tmm105/

Regarding the second level, you could easily do that by just fitting a ramp up against the sleeping area on the right-hand side and then nail some wood up against the three sides of that sleeping area so that they are high enough that he can't crawl out. Mine love the upper area and are constantly running up and down to see if there are any treats for them up there. Have attached a photo of my Dolly at the top of her 'penthouse' looking down:
[attachment=0]m_IMG_9496.jpg[/attachment]

Re drinking -- many tortoises don't drink (lol, or not while you are looking), so I would bathe him twice a week to keep him well hydrated -- and they usually wee and poo in the bath so that helps keep the table clean, but also keep a dish of water in there just in case he does want to drink. I also wet the leaves/flowers etc. that I feed mine -- it gives them a bit of extra water and also helps the calcium powder stick to it so that it isn't wasted.

I'm not sure why your substrate is smelling, especially if you are spot cleaning the poos and wee (I find an old spoon easily lifts out the wet clump of soil from a wee). I use a mixture of screened topsoil and children's play sand (about 60% or 70% topsoil), and I do either spray mine every other day, or sometimes I just pour some water on it every three or four days and mix it in. What you want to end up with is for it to be just the teeniest tiniest bit damp -- not at all wet. What are you using for bedding in his sleeping area?

Does he have an outdoor enclosure to go to in the summer? You might not be able to provide that, but they do love being outdoors and the sun is the best source of UVB.

Sorry for such a long post, but I really do think that your bulb might have been too hot for him in the summer, and a thermometer will help you to get the right temperatures in summer and winter.

Nina

[Daniel]

Good morning Sarah

If struggling to feed your tortoise in the winter months, there are many things we can do. Please look at Andy Highfield's article on the Tortoise Trust website called Winter Feeding (if my memory is correct).

There is a product called Pre Alpin Testudo which you soak the cobs in water to expand before feeding. There are also many suppliers of safe tortoise dry flowers and leaves that can be feed.

Also you could have a little indoor grow area with a cheap grow lamp to grow weeds in the winter months. You can buy a flexible tub, not the deep ones, but one of the shallow ones. You just fill up with soil and place the seeds on the surface and keep damp until germination occurs with a sprayer. Once the first set of leaves occurs then water with a small indoor watering can every couple of days. Don't worry about making holes in the flexible tub for drainage, as weeds need a lot of water and you will find that the soil will become dry very quickly.

Tortoise safe weed seeds are available from quite a few suppliers online these days.

Kind regards Daniel.