Shell flaking :o

[SilverWings]

I was giving Bella his evening shell scritches and a piece flaked off It was paper thin, and very small, half the size of my small finger nail, but what really worries me is under the remaining piece there is a spot of blood visible. I had already planned to take him in to the vets this week for an annual check/fecal test so this will be something to quiz the vet about, but I just wondered if anything like this has happened to anybody before? Any ideas what might have gone wrong, if anything at all?
The shell underneath the flaked off piece does not feel soft, it does look quite translucent though. Obviously he's missing a vertebral scute so the shell grows strangely here...
It doesn't seem to worry him at all, he's still stomping around and begging for food, but now I'm worried my tortoise is dying!!!!

https://imgur.com/QZhdlYW


Thanks guys

[lin]

I would defo get him to the vet asap because looking closely at that part of the shell on the left of the scute it does seem to be coming away from the next scute. This could be because of the missing scuute and the growth making up for what is not there but it could potentially be the start of shell rot or sepsis and because I am not a vet it would be better if caught early and treatment started.
Do you have a good reptile vet that treats tortoises, nearby?
Please keep us posted on what he says and I hope everything is ok.

Lin

[SilverWings]

Hi, thanks for the input, now I'm even more worried

Yes I have a local reptile vet, I'll give them a ring tomorrow and get Bella booked in asap.

[lin]

Its best to be safe and it will be wonderful when he says its nothing to worry about.
xx

Lin

[SilverWings]

She's booked in this morning, I'll let you know what he says!

[SilverWings]

I'm very pleased to say that the vet was entirely unconcerned about the flaky bit. He said it could be because of his rapid growth, or the missing scute, or both, but as the shell isn't soft at all he's certain it's not infection or any kind of deficiency. He said to just keep an eye on it but it'll very likely be absolutely fine. Paz said he seems to be in perfect health, so I'm very pleased! I asked about his rapid growth since January as that has worried me somewhat, but again he wasn't concerned as Bella came from a bad start so is probably just catching up a bit. The new growth looks great, so no problems He didn;t even charge me for the visit which was nice!

Conveniently, Bella pooped all over his table, so we've sent that off for a parasite test since he's been out a lot this summer.

[SilverWings]

Also, I do have an additional question; being a rehome, Bella has no CITES paperwork and we scanned him today and found he also has no microchip. I was under the impression that as I don't intend to sell him or breed from him, I don't need to apply for a CITES certificate (which would then allow me to sell him)? However the vet said that he should still have paperwork and a chip, and I need to contact DEFRA to get him registered, and that the vets should technically report any unregistered torts that they see. Does anybody know how/if I can get him registered, what do I need to apply for etc? I've sent an email directly to defra to ask but I reckon they'll take a while to get back to me if they do at all. Thanks!!

[lin]

There you go. I bet your feeling on top of the world now. That is so good to hear from this side and to not charge you have a good'un there with a parasite thrown in. Amazing and always better to be safe.
Thanks for updating.

Lin

[lin]

I will check out the DEFRA situation and get back to you Silverwings.

Lin

[lin]

Hi Silverwings.
I have just realised that Bella isnt a horsfield. What species is he.

Lin

[SilverWings]

Hermann's, sorry, should have said! Don't know which subspecies though.

[lin]

Ok Silverwings. This is a bit of a long one, sorry for that.

Yes, I am afraid they do need an Article 10 and its best to have one just incase and its quite easy to obtain one.
Can I ask where you got him and how long ago (you can pm me lin@thetortoisetable.org.uk if you prefer).
Have a read of this article
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... ite/82.asp

And it seems its a form FED1012 you need to apply for the article 10, its only just been updated so its all in order.

For Tortoises captive bred in the UK – without supporting documentary evidence.
If a tortoise is captive bred in the UK, and there is no documentation to reinforce that the tortoise is  captive bred, there is little chance of obtaining a full Specimen Specific Certificate.  Applications should be made in writing to DEFRA with an application form FED1012.  Each case is treated separately and considered on its own merits.  Usually, the best result one can hope for is a Breeder’s Certificate.  This can either be issued as a TSC or a SSC, dependent on whether the tortoise is over 60mm in length and microchipped.  This will permit the tortoise to be bred and can be used to apply for TSCs for any hatchlings.  It will not permit the sale of the tortoise.
and this can be obtained and printed out and filled in from here —
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ercial-use


DEFRA a ring (they’re not monsters, really)

D E F R A
Government office
London
020 7270 3000

If they don’t give you the answers you are looking for then just carry on with filling in the form. Its a huge office and unless they put you through to the right person it might be a waste.

I cant think of anything that I haven’t covered and if you can then do get back to us.

Oh, and if you show me a photo of the underside I might be able to tell you the subspecies.

Lin

[SilverWings]

See, I saw that exact page, and at the top it says;

"All Annex A tortoises require an Article 10 licence (A10) before any commercial transaction (sale) can take place. However, there is no requirement for a licence in order to possess an Annex A tortoise, or if you give one away as a gift."

She was given to me a January by a lady; her nephew was given the tortoise by his mum, with no paperwork, just the tortoise (I did ask just in case he had anything around). He was neglecting tortoise (I don't entirely blame him, more the mum since she gave him a tortoise when he had no idea how to care for them). When the lady saw that she rehomed him to me with his knowledge and consent. No money was exchanged so as far as I could tell neither of us broke any laws there.

I do appreciate your time and response, thank you!

[lin]

Ah, thats why I asked where you got her.
As she was gifted to you it would have been good if you had got a note to say she was gifting you the felame hermans tortoise and a signature. It really just coveres you.
Your vet should know that rehomed tortoises, providing they are not wild caught is ok to not hold the article 10.
You can take a copy of that article to your vet and get him to explain why he has to report tortoises with no A.10. His answer would be interesting.

Lin

[SilverWings]

Tbh it didn't occur to me at the time to ask for a signed note, I should have. I do however have her number and some texts on my phone between us that are very clear she was gifted to me, so if it ever becomes a problem I think I'll be able to provide adequate proof.

I am relieved he was wrong, I certainly don't want to be keeping him illegally and it did worry me a bit. I do eventually plan to get him microchipped just in case he gets lost but I assume I can just register that with petlog or similar. Thank you for taking the time to research and respond! I will be asking the vet about why he has to report when I get the parasite results back...

Here's a pic of his (dirty) belly, if you are able to tell me his subspecies that would be amazing! And despite the name he is defiitely male, he flashed his privates last week leaving me in no doubt

https://i.imgur.com/4p6ES1L.jpg

Thanks again!
xx

[lin]

He is a Western Hermann's tortoise (Testudo hermanni hermanni)
There you go, now you know.

Lin

[SilverWings]

Thank you <3